Episode 209

Conversation on Spiritual Wisdom of Trees with Beth Norcross and Leah Rampy

In this episode of CarbonSessions, we welcome Beth Norcross and Leah Rampy—educators, spiritual leaders, and nature advocates—who co-authored Discovering the Spiritual Wisdom of Trees, a deeply reflective guide to reconnecting with the natural world.

Rooted in ecology, theology, and lived experience, their book invites us to see trees not just as beautiful beings, but as teachers, companions, and mirrors of our own spiritual lives.

Through stories, reflections, and accessible practices, Beth and Leah offer a path back to wonder, attention, and a renewed sense of belonging within the living world.

🌳 In this episode, we explore:

Childhood memories that sparked lifelong reverence for trees
How trees model resilience, community, and mutual care
The meaning of stewardship
Simple, powerful practices to connect with nature—even in busy lives
Lessons trees offer us about grief, healing, and wholeness
How to reawaken wonder and attention in a distracted world
The power of collaborative authorship and collective wisdom
A vision of a future shaped by interconnection, not extraction

This is a soulful conversation at the intersection of ecology, spirituality, and action—reminding us that learning from trees can guide us toward more grounded, generous, and hopeful lives.

To connect with:

Beth Norcross: https://www.bethnorcross.com/
Leah Rampy: https://www.leahmoranrampy.com/
The Center for Spirituality in Nature: https://www.centerforspiritualityinnature.org/

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For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Brian Tormey, Olabanji Stephen, Jenn Swanson, and Kristina Horning

Leekei is a fashion business business coach, an international development expert, and podcaster from Paris, France.

Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US.

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria. He’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer, and community Connector, helping people help themselves.

Kristina is currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US.

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington, and Rob Slater.

Transcript

Speaker: 00:00:01

Hi, I'm Christina.

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I'm from Prague.

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Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

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Hi, I'm Oladunji, and I'm from Nigeria.

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Hello, I'm Liki, and I live in Paris.

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Hi, I'm Brian, and I'm from New York.

: 00:00:15

Welcome

: 00:00:18

to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with

Carbon Conversations for every day, with

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everyone, from everywhere in the world.

: 00:00:26

In our conversations, we share ideas.

: 00:00:28

Perspectives, questions, and things we

can actually do to make a difference.

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So don't be shy and join our Carbon

Sessions because it's not too late.

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Hi, I am Ji.

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Hi, I'm Jen.

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Hi, I'm Christina.

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Hi, I'm Brian.

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And hi, I'm leaky and

welcome to Carbon Sessions.

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And today we all joined by Death

North Cross and Leah Rami death and

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Leah co-wrote a beautiful book called

Discovering the Spiritual Wisdom of Trees.

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And if you are like me, you

probably already love trees.

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And as we're recording today, it's end

of April and it's springtime and trees

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are burgeoning and uh, and wearing

this gorgeous new leaves everywhere.

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And I just can't help modeling

of these beautiful trees.

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But today we are talking about a deeper

aspect of trees, not only about how

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beautiful they are, but how we can connect

with trees and what they can teach us.

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Right.

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And so welcome Beth and Leah.

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Thank you.

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We're happy to be here.

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Okay.

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First question, and um, this

question is addressed to both of you.

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Do you remember a moment in your life

that you realize that trees are more than

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beautiful and gorgeous to look at, that we

can connect with trees at a deeper level?

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So what was the aha moment

of this discovery, if any?

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Well, I think I knew that

from a very young age.

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Um, so that, you know, as I

was a, as I was a child, I.

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I was really enamored with a

cottonwood tree that was outside

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my bedroom window that would sing

to me at night and provided such

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shade and such incredible beauty.

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And I know now that a lot of people

don't like cottonwood trees, that

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they think their weeds and they,

uh, shed their cotton all over.

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But from my perspective, they

were absolutely both beautiful

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and they were kind of a friend

really, that I could talk to.

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I will say then I forgot that, you

know, that got layered over as I left

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home, as I went into the world and was,

uh, busy with quote, earning a living

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and trying to, uh, raise a family

and do all those things that most of

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us, I think, feel is expected of us.

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And I lost a sense of that connection.

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But there was always some way in

which, whenever I had vacation

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or spare time, it was always this

longing to get back to the trees.

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What about you Beth?

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Uh, thank you.

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Thank you for the question.

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I was trying to go inside my memory banks.

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I think, uh, as a child the

trees were play things to me.

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They were things to climb and get on top

of and, uh, throw walnuts at my little

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sister and annoy her and things like that.

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It was a really a playful

element of nature.

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I, for a long time I worked in

the environmental community and on

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Capitol Hill here in our senate on

nature issues and forestry issues.

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But I don't think it was

until I was in seminary and

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theological school and maybe I.

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Jen notes that your theology is

sort of blown up and then you try

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to put it back together again.

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That I started merging my

understanding of both my spiritual

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life and my ecological life.

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It was somewhere in there that as I

was sort of casting about at my own

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sense of theology and spirituality,

that I looked up and saw the trees very

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differently in, in all other elements

of the natural world, and saw them,

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uh, as Leah so beautifully put in

the book, imprinted with the Divine.

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And I think that was a, I don't think

there was a single moment, but a series

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of moments where I just began to, to look

and see and, and know trees differently.

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That's beautiful.

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So, you know, Beth, a question for

you, and, and a follow up to that

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question is sort of like your theology.

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You know, getting exploded during seminary

and then coming back to and coalescing.

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Do you feel like during that process,

was there some moment where you sort

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of like felt that some of the things in

the teachings that were coming to you

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through traditional seminary learnings,

you were like weaving some thoughts from

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your respective on the natural world

into those and like making them your own.

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Are there any stories about sort

of that moment where you wove

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some of those things into what was

traditional seminary teachings?

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Mm-hmm.

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Well, what I began to notice, and maybe

Jen had this experience also, is that the

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Bible is very much, uh, the Green Book.

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You might have heard there's this

thing called the Green Bible.

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I, I don't really care for it because

the whole book seems to be screaming.

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Um, earth, what the Bible

might call creation.

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So I think it was a series of

stories and scriptures that really

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took on new meaning because of my

background in ecology and forestry.

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Mm-hmm.

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There's one in particular, since you

asked, uh, I remember reading the story

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of Noah and the Arc, and of course it's

very familiar, known to most children

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who go through Sunday school anyway

and the two by two and on the Arc, and

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Noah puts the, and so forth and so on.

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But after the arc, you know, rolls

around in the water where some time

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God makes a covenant in this story.

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Um, what I realized when I read it, I

couldn't believe I had missed it before,

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that God doesn't make a covenant just

with Noah, but with every living thing.

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And in Genesis, God repeats that in case.

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Case we know, sort of slaps us across

the base, if you will, uh, verbally

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and says, Hey, if you don't get

this, let me tell you again, this

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covenant is with every living thing.

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And that really just broke open my

understanding of, of the biblical

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imperative and my, my theological stance.

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Mm-hmm.

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It really wasn't, it wasn't about us

that we were an important but just a,

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an element of, of the biblical story.

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Yeah.

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Can, can I ask a follow up on that?

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I know we've got some, uh, a

lot of other questions here.

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I'm curious.

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There's that, that construct of thought

of sort of like, we're a, a piece in

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the puzzle and we're just sort of a,

a, you know, one of the ingredients

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and then there's also this like strong

sense and obligation of stewardship,

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of being responsive, having our own

responsibility and authority and, and I

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think sometimes stewardship, you know.

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Can be interpreted to have like authority

to it as opposed to responsibility.

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And I'm curious if you have any thoughts

on sort of like the nuances inside

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stewardship as it relates to like

being a piece of the larger puzzle.

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You know, the, the section in Genesis

about stewardship and dominion,

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it's given us all sorts of trouble.

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Um, I think that stewardship can in

fact be thought of paternalistic,

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and I think there's danger in that.

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I think that's what you're alluding to.

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Mm-hmm.

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But I, I hearken back, you know,

on that whole difficult section of

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dominion and stewardship and subduing

and all of that, which we can talk

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about for, for hours and hours.

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It is all proceeded in that

account, you know, the two creation

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accounts in the Bible, first and

foremost by that six day account.

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And, you know, we don't come

along until well into that story.

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Day after day after day, God says.

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It's good, it's good.

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Each piece, each element of, of earthly

creation is good in and of itself.

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So any stewardship responsibilities

that we have always are in the context

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of all of this goodness of all.

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Mm-hmm.

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The value of each and every element

that is created in that story.

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Yeah.

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So that helps me understand, again,

just sort of, I'm not sure, not

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sure how I missed that before or

how collectively we missed that.

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It's all there in the story.

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Yeah.

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That's great.

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Thank you.

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I'm next, and of course,

I have too many questions.

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I've been doing a lot of reading

and work around awe and finding

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the elements of awe and delight.

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As an antidote to what's

happening in the world right now.

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And I was completely delighted when I read

the reference to the Story of the Acorn

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in one of my most favorite books from

Cynthia Burau, the Wisdom Way of Knowing.

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And I went, I know that story.

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I love that story.

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And the story about the Acorn, you know,

being this little tiny thing that has to

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be beaten up and cracked open and broken

before it can grow into a huge oak tree.

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And just thinking ab about that idea

of, of needing to be beaten up a

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little bit and cracked open to be

able to grow into something that at

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first people see this little thing

and don't think anything of it, but

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with love and nurturing, you can grow.

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And I just wonder if that

threads through or where the

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idea to include that came from.

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Well, I think you know that we were

teaching a course on the spiritual wisdom

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of trees that Beth and I developed, I

guess five years ago now, and it's a

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video series, so I'm not exactly sure.

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I think I blame Beth for it, but I think

she has, like you, Jen, always loved that

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story and she really began telling that

story in the very first class that we.

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Taught in our series.

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So it made its way into the book, and I

got to write that chapter, and I tell it

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very lightly in this chapter because it's

a bigger part of how Cynthia presents it.

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But I think it's such a great story to

weave through the book because it reminds

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us that there is this very similar process

that we have of being endowed with this

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kind of true essence of who we are.

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And we are holding up this acorn who

really can only ever become who it was

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meant to be, which is this oak tree.

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So there's that, that shows up

again and again in the story.

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But you're right, there's a

way in which we have to push

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at the edges of who we are.

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We have to go to the edge and then

make it a little more, a little more

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challenging even to break through.

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To allow ourselves to

become fully who we are.

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In that amazing story of our soul

and our heart cracking open, this

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is, um, what Thomas Merton refers

to, I think, as Hidden wholeness.

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And so to remember that that

hidden wholeness is within

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us is really important.

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I'm also hearing you, Jen, point out

that sometimes being sort of buffeted

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by what is going on around us can be an

invitation to listen for what is within,

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and maybe it can help us focus less

only on this idea of breaking 'cause.

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Clearly it costs us

something to break open.

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Thank you.

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Beautiful.

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Beth, do you have anything

to only that, that story?

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I also love for the same reason

you do Jen from Cynthia's work.

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This comes up a lot in our conversations

with people who have either read the

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book or taken the class, and I just

wanted to say that we're not inviting

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people to beat themselves up in order

to become more grounded, but that the

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world does a pretty good job of that.

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And I think it's particularly

interesting for these times.

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You know, we, we wrote the book, I think

we finished it over a year ago now.

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We couldn't have imagined what the world

would look like, and yet the messages we

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think are quite pertinent for these times.

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That there are so many who are being

cracked open and dirtied and Sully.

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From a variety of different sources.

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And so the promise of the acorn is

that, not that we invite those times

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and we, we want people to do that to

us, but rather that there is something

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to be learned and experienced and

deepened in us through these times.

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And I think that's an important

message for today that, um,

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that's really incredible.

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First, I wanna say that the work that

you both have done here is incredible.

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And I'm spelling that in caps when I say

incredible, because it's not every day

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you come across a book that tells you

that, hey, there's this dimension to trees

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and you should pay attention to that.

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And so it's, it's super interesting.

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I think one of the things that, just

listening to your stories, you both say

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that the trees have spoken to you, right?

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You've, um.

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You've been able to interact

with the trees and for a lot of

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people that, I mean, and there's

stories, you know, you've told

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some of the stories behind that.

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Some of that is in your book as well.

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And there are people wondering, well I'm

wondering, right, like I want the trees

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to speak to me as well and you know, what

do you think are like daily practices

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and I guess the state of mind to be in,

to be able to get to that singularity,

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that singularity point with the trees.

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Wanna start that one?

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Beth?

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You want me to Go ahead, Leah?

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Um, I love this question, so

let me start and then Beth

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can embellish if she wants to.

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I think it's such a great question

and I appreciate you asking it.

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So first of all, I think we have

to remember that Therese are

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not going to speak to us in the

way that we speak to each other.

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So to expect something to come to us

in, uh, proper English or whatever

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our language is, is, uh, probably

not going to be very helpful.

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But we can think that there are ways

that other beings beyond the human world

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communicate all the time with each other.

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There are ways they interact.

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I would go so far as to say there are

ways that they are in communion with

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each other, and that's the invitation

for us is to get out of our heads.

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And how would we begin?

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Um, we're fond of telling people

to breathe with a tree because

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we are breathing with the trees.

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So to think about that intentionally,

but then let the thinking go and just

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let the action happen to fully open our

senses so that we're touching the tree,

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we're taking in that scent of pine.

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We're closing our eyes and listening

to the wind and the branches.

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And yes, some trees we actually taste

because they are providing food for us.

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So to go to the census.

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And then it's also important

to remember that trees move at

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a much slower pace than we do.

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So we can't go out and take our

fast-paced life to a tree and say, I'm

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here to talk to you, speak to me now.

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And I think, you know, we can say

trees, we can say this for any element

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of the living world around us, that

that rhythm of the living world.

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Is a rhythm that humans used to know.

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But we've layered that over with

a whole lot of fast-paced life and

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have forgotten how to live in the

rhythm of seasons, in the rhythm

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of growth, in the rhythm of years.

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So there's the slowing down and this

patience that needs to be cultivated

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and a repetition to, uh, listen to

what the trees want to be telling us.

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And a willingness, willingness to

accept it in a language, not our own.

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You wanna embellish

anything on that, Beth?

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Well, you covered that so beautifully.

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I would just say that you'll notice that

there's a practice at the end of each

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chapter of our book, and that's purposeful

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because we wanted to invite

people not just to be.

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Thinking about these things, but

really to be experiencing them.

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And the first thing we ask people to do

is to find or be found by a teacher tree.

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And as silly as that might seem,

to some, it's really become a very

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important and profound experience

from the people with whom we've

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discussed this and taught and so forth.

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And just see what that teacher tree

who chose you, is saying to you.

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And again, and we encourage our

participants not to force this, but just

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to let it, as Leah said, through our

senses, there've been so many trees.

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I think, and I mentioned one in the book

that have been comforting to me, who've

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taught me things about adapting and

accepting and resilience and so forth.

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Uh, if we open our.

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It open our hearts, and

we've tried to provide these

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exercises to help one do that.

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That's really great.

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But before you go, Beth, I, I want you

to talk a little bit more about the

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tree that was teaching you about things.

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Right?

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Can you share a moment or an

example or a specific experience?

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Well, there've been so many.

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I, I think I'll, I'll share one that we

actually put in the book and there was

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: 00:19:57

a, a tree that has been meaningful to me

and others I took down to, to meet her.

288

: 00:20:04

And it's a big old tulip poplar tree.

289

: 00:20:07

And when I first encountered it, I

thought it must most certainly be dead.

290

: 00:20:13

It had a huge scoop out of it.

291

: 00:20:16

All of its heart wound was gone, uh,

from a lightning strike I assumed.

292

: 00:20:21

But when I looked up, I saw those

sort of telltale, tulip shaped leaves.

293

: 00:20:27

Sort of shimmering the top.

294

: 00:20:29

And I have to admit, I've spent a lot

of time with her in some difficult

295

: 00:20:35

moments in the last few years.

296

: 00:20:38

And first of all, I'm comforted by

her because you can get inside her

297

: 00:20:44

trunk and sort of feel held by her.

298

: 00:20:46

But also this sense that despite this

terrible injury, she continued to

299

: 00:20:54

survive and not only survive, but thrive.

300

: 00:20:57

And I looked up and I saw that

she was providing seeds to birds

301

: 00:21:02

way, way high in her branches.

302

: 00:21:04

And so even in her broken stage, she

could give back to the forest community.

303

: 00:21:10

And so I realized in some of the

brokenness that I had recently

304

: 00:21:14

experienced, that I too would survive

and, and perhaps get to a point where

305

: 00:21:19

I too could give back to others again.

306

: 00:21:23

Uh, and so it's those kinds of

experiences over and over again.

307

: 00:21:28

And in the book I share an experience of

a, a group that I brought down there as a

308

: 00:21:33

leader, a grief group who felt similarly

comforted by this wonderful teacher tree.

309

: 00:21:39

That's just beautiful.

310

: 00:21:41

I mean, anyone hearing you talk

about trees now, it's is definitely

311

: 00:21:44

falling in love with trees.

312

: 00:21:46

Yeah,

313

: 00:21:49

that's our hope.

314

: 00:21:50

Hm.

315

: 00:21:50

Yeah.

316

: 00:21:51

Uh, you know, Liz, a question I had,

and you sort of touched into it, is,

317

: 00:21:56

you know, for our audience who hasn't

yet read your book, can you enumerate

318

: 00:22:01

and talk a little bit about some of the,

the benefits of some of the practices

319

: 00:22:05

that you speak to, and this, the

methodologies you speak to in the book.

320

: 00:22:08

Some of like the tangible benefits

that that may be, you know, you know,

321

: 00:22:13

Beth, you were sort of talking about

comfort and sort of being able to have

322

: 00:22:17

this sort of support network that's

accessible to you just, I don't know

323

: 00:22:21

how far this is from your home, but

just outside your door somewhere.

324

: 00:22:24

Right.

325

: 00:22:24

Or, um, health benefits or community

connectivity, some of the, you know,

326

: 00:22:29

enumerating, some of the things

that you've seen come out of these

327

: 00:22:31

practices that you speak about.

328

: 00:22:33

Well, um, so Beth has clearly named

comfort as one, but she was also,

329

: 00:22:41

I think Beth, you were pointing to

resilience, this capacity for persisting.

330

: 00:22:48

That you see.

331

: 00:22:49

And I think people recognize that there

is more of a capacity that we have

332

: 00:22:55

for resilience than perhaps we know.

333

: 00:22:57

Sometimes it feels hard and we feel

like we want to stop, and yet there

334

: 00:23:06

is within each of us this kind of

strength that trees remind us we have.

335

: 00:23:13

I think there's also, um, this sense

of blending or capitalizing, that's

336

: 00:23:22

not really the word I wanna use,

uh, drawing on both light and dark.

337

: 00:23:27

And we can think that darkness is

something we should avoid, something

338

: 00:23:33

we should try to get out of.

339

: 00:23:34

And clearly, clearly

trees reach for the light.

340

: 00:23:37

You can see all the ways that

they bend and stretch and

341

: 00:23:41

curve and reach for the light.

342

: 00:23:43

And still they know the power of darkness.

343

: 00:23:47

And they rest at night

and droop their leaves.

344

: 00:23:51

They know the power of winter when

they are holding the little buds on

345

: 00:23:59

their branches and keeping them safe by

not giving them water so they freeze.

346

: 00:24:05

I mean, they, they know that there

is that time that's so important.

347

: 00:24:09

And of course, so much of a life of a

tree happens underground in the darkness.

348

: 00:24:17

And my favorite that I have to talk

about all the time is the capacity

349

: 00:24:23

for collaboration and connection.

350

: 00:24:25

Because Therese are such collaborators

and you don't ever wanna start me

351

: 00:24:31

on stories of Therese collaborating

because they're amazing.

352

: 00:24:36

They are amazing.

353

: 00:24:37

Please do In the ways,

354

: 00:24:40

well, we'll just mention

the coast redwoods.

355

: 00:24:42

I mention that one all the time

because it's one of my favorite.

356

: 00:24:45

But we could talk about

beach trees or pines.

357

: 00:24:49

Coast redwoods live within 50 miles

of the coast on the California,

358

: 00:24:55

Washington, Oregon, uh, coast.

359

: 00:24:58

They draw moisture from the fog.

360

: 00:25:00

So that's a favorite

place for them to live.

361

: 00:25:03

But of course that means

they're subject to the storms

362

: 00:25:05

that come in off the Pacific.

363

: 00:25:08

What would you think they would do

if they wanted to maintain their

364

: 00:25:12

capacity for being the equivalent

of 30 stories tall and be.

365

: 00:25:20

Able to withstand these incredible storms.

366

: 00:25:23

I would expect them to have

a huge, deep, deep taproot.

367

: 00:25:27

They don't, but they do have

an extensive root system.

368

: 00:25:31

It's not deep, but it's

connected to each other, and so

369

: 00:25:36

these trees are so interwoven.

370

: 00:25:40

It is as if they are holding

hands with each other.

371

: 00:25:43

And if that's not a story for our

times, I don't know what it is.

372

: 00:25:48

Over and over and over again, trees

tell us that we cannot do this alone.

373

: 00:25:54

That is not their wisdom.

374

: 00:25:56

They remind us that it takes a forest

to maintain healthy trees and they give

375

: 00:26:04

away their nutrients to the weakest among

them to the oldest and the youngest.

376

: 00:26:09

Their stories of.

377

: 00:26:11

Trees over and over again who thrive

because they are in collaboration.

378

: 00:26:19

So it is not just a story of

competition, as we're often told,

379

: 00:26:24

we're often told as if the natural

world is all about, um, outcompeting.

380

: 00:26:30

Yes.

381

: 00:26:31

A tooth and claw.

382

: 00:26:32

Yeah.

383

: 00:26:32

Red and tooth and claw in tenons words.

384

: 00:26:35

Right.

385

: 00:26:36

If I can jump in on that, Leah.

386

: 00:26:38

I grew up in Oregon near the coast,

and, and we actually, uh, this last

387

: 00:26:41

year I bought a piece of property

that's right on a 500 foot bluff

388

: 00:26:45

looking out over the ocean and it, it's

a big, it's got it's timber property.

389

: 00:26:50

And it has a couple of those.

390

: 00:26:51

They're dug fur, not redwood, but

they are 250 foot plus tall trees.

391

: 00:26:57

These massive trees.

392

: 00:26:58

I mean, the base is the size of

a car and they're so impressive.

393

: 00:27:01

And one of the things that I just

researched and was learning about was in

394

: 00:27:05

addition to, I don't know if how their

roots work, but it's also that they, they

395

: 00:27:10

all act as partial buffers to the winds.

396

: 00:27:15

So they're all helping as a

group sort of break the wind.

397

: 00:27:19

It's not any one tree taking the full

force and brunt of it, but they're sort of

398

: 00:27:24

like being distributed across them as, as

these huge gales are coming off the ocean.

399

: 00:27:29

Um, and that when I was learning about

this, 'cause I was looking at these trees

400

: 00:27:32

and the winds are like pushing me over

on this bluff and I was like, how are

401

: 00:27:37

these, how are these standing up so tall?

402

: 00:27:39

And, and that was a pretty impressive

thing that speaks to this kind of

403

: 00:27:42

sense of community and collective

benefit, uh, as well that I think

404

: 00:27:46

we can all, you know, emulate.

405

: 00:27:48

I, I think that's beautiful.

406

: 00:27:50

I, yes.

407

: 00:27:52

That, that's beautiful.

408

: 00:27:53

Really beautiful.

409

: 00:27:54

Uh, I, I was listening to a

podcast the other day and the

410

: 00:28:00

host asks the guest, what is the

greatest advice you ever received?

411

: 00:28:04

And he said, pay attention.

412

: 00:28:07

Mm-hmm.

413

: 00:28:08

That was the greatest

advice he ever received.

414

: 00:28:10

And I've heard this several times, that

nature is always speaking, we just have

415

: 00:28:15

to pay attention and sort of listen.

416

: 00:28:18

And, and that brings me to sort of like my

next question because a lot of people will

417

: 00:28:24

consider the context of our conversation

today, a little spiritual, right?

418

: 00:28:31

Um, and there are people who do

not consider themselves spiritual

419

: 00:28:37

in, you know, in many ways.

420

: 00:28:39

And it, it might not automatically

jump out to them as something that

421

: 00:28:45

they want to practice or do or emulate.

422

: 00:28:49

But then I remember Isaac Newton,

just from an apple falling from the

423

: 00:28:53

tree, he's able to postulate the

theory of gravity and a lot of things.

424

: 00:29:01

Are existing today because people

paid attention to, to nature.

425

: 00:29:05

We saw birds flying, so

we knew to make airplanes.

426

: 00:29:08

And there's like a lot of things

in that whole space as well.

427

: 00:29:11

So for a non-spiritual person or for

someone to say, oh, I, I want to do this.

428

: 00:29:17

Like I can do this.

429

: 00:29:19

What, what is like a daily, and I know

that you've said there are practices

430

: 00:29:24

at the end of each chapter of your book

and there are things to do every time.

431

: 00:29:29

But if we could take one of those things,

um, and I'm referring to perhaps something

432

: 00:29:34

that when you were writing the book, you

thought, oh, everybody should actually

433

: 00:29:37

do this regardless of who you are.

434

: 00:29:40

Right?

435

: 00:29:40

What, what would that thing be?

436

: 00:29:43

Well, I'll, I'll start there.

437

: 00:29:44

I, I appreciate that question

and we get some form of that.

438

: 00:29:48

A lot people are, we have busy

lives and we have been acculturated

439

: 00:29:54

to think of nature as other,

you know, divorced from our.

440

: 00:29:58

Regular, everyday responsibilities and

things that which we pay attention.

441

: 00:30:03

And there are so many, so many

aspects of our life that we are

442

: 00:30:07

being asked to pay attention to.

443

: 00:30:09

Our spouses, our children, so much of

what's going on in the world, honestly,

444

: 00:30:14

trees, so we of course, think there's

an awful lot to learn from trees.

445

: 00:30:20

And so I think a lot about habit.

446

: 00:30:23

Um, read a lot about habits and

how we form them, you know, and

447

: 00:30:27

they're, we are quite capable

of forming new habits, right?

448

: 00:30:32

I mean, think of all the new habits

we formed around these little

449

: 00:30:37

phones that tether us in many ways.

450

: 00:30:40

And so one suggestion that I make,

um, to people who come to our, our

451

: 00:30:46

programs is that when we take that

first, almost all of us take some sip

452

: 00:30:51

of something in the morning, be it tea

or coffee or juice or something, is.

453

: 00:30:57

To develop a habit of linking that

exercise with just looking outside

454

: 00:31:04

for 30 seconds and really, and, and

preferably to trees for our purposes.

455

: 00:31:12

But that just that building it into

something that the habit thought leaders

456

: 00:31:18

will tell you that if, if you bring

it into something that you're already

457

: 00:31:21

doing, that you can form a new habit.

458

: 00:31:25

Another another thing someone told me

once, um, I had preached what I thought

459

: 00:31:31

was a pretty good sermon and she came

up to me and said, well, that's all

460

: 00:31:34

great, but you know, I've got three

kids and I've got a busy job and the

461

: 00:31:37

only time I see the natural world is by

looking out my sunroof at the sky when

462

: 00:31:45

I'm stuck in traffic on our beltway.

463

: 00:31:48

And I stopped for a moment and I let

her sort of catch up with herself

464

: 00:31:52

and she said, oh, I can see the sky.

465

: 00:31:57

I can always see this guy.

466

: 00:32:00

And so that's another habit that when

we, you know, punch our starters on

467

: 00:32:07

our cars just to look up and out.

468

: 00:32:13

So again, developing these new

habits of, of paying attention

469

: 00:32:17

may be easier than we think.

470

: 00:32:20

Brushing teeth also is not, it's not

tree related, although it might be.

471

: 00:32:25

Um, but that act of turning on water,

turning off water and being aware

472

: 00:32:31

of the water, which I can't remember

which chapter that was, six or so, so

473

: 00:32:36

important to trees and to all of life.

474

: 00:32:39

Just these simple things that we're

doing anyway that can be brought

475

: 00:32:44

into a habit of paying attention.

476

: 00:32:46

I was just gonna add two

things, see if I can remember.

477

: 00:32:49

The one is just to pick

up on that last point.

478

: 00:32:53

Whether it's drinking water,

eating food, breathing, air

479

: 00:32:57

tracing back from once it came,

480

: 00:33:01

you know, where is that water coming from?

481

: 00:33:05

And you would say maybe that's not

about trees, but it's water trees.

482

: 00:33:10

The whole, the whole

world is interconnected.

483

: 00:33:14

It's all connected.

484

: 00:33:16

Uh, Joanna Macy says, it's all

alive, it's all connected, it's all

485

: 00:33:20

intelligent, it's all relatives.

486

: 00:33:22

Those are the four things that I

say over and over when I'm leading

487

: 00:33:25

retreats and to, to trace that back.

488

: 00:33:30

The water is within us.

489

: 00:33:32

Beth and I live about an hour apart.

490

: 00:33:35

If the traffic is not too terrible,

sometimes it could be two hours, but we're

491

: 00:33:40

both drinking from the Potomac River.

492

: 00:33:43

And to really recognize that, it's a

pretty amazing thing because it's not

493

: 00:33:48

just we're drinking, it is within us.

494

: 00:33:51

Right now, it is shaping us.

495

: 00:33:54

It's shaping ourselves and who we are or

to remember the food that we are eating

496

: 00:34:00

is a part of every cell in our body coming

from those amazing plants because we

497

: 00:34:07

don't eat meat without there being plants.

498

: 00:34:10

It all goes back to the plants

and there are incredible capacity

499

: 00:34:14

for photosynthesizing and our

bodies are covered and in inside

500

: 00:34:19

us is a living microbiome.

501

: 00:34:22

This idea that we're separate is

such a mistaken and sad little bit of

502

: 00:34:32

mythology that somehow has layered us

over, um, layered over our culture.

503

: 00:34:38

So just to begin with.

504

: 00:34:42

Anything we're touching, you're probably

touching wood now, or most of us

505

: 00:34:46

probably have something that's, that's

made of wood within our touch so that

506

: 00:34:51

you, you brought the word awareness up

and so that is part of the awareness,

507

: 00:34:57

just saying where did this come from?

508

: 00:35:01

That's beautiful.

509

: 00:35:02

Um, it's, it's, um, it's super

interesting, um, paying attention.

510

: 00:35:08

You, you guys have beautifully

explained it, so thank you.

511

: 00:35:11

Leah.

512

: 00:35:11

You brought up the sort of like the

microbiome and touched into a little bit

513

: 00:35:16

of this, like all this interconnectivity

and we're not a solitary isolated vessel

514

: 00:35:21

outside everything else, et cetera.

515

: 00:35:23

Maybe talk a little bit

about that and some of the.

516

: 00:35:26

You know, things you've touched on this

in your book of that is some of the kinds

517

: 00:35:29

of learnings that can come from trees and,

and the moments of being with trees is

518

: 00:35:35

like, even the tree itself is not this one

singular thing that is its own isolated,

519

: 00:35:40

perfectly self-contained vessel and, and

couldn't live that way if it were right.

520

: 00:35:45

Mm-hmm.

521

: 00:35:45

In the same way we come live that way.

522

: 00:35:47

If we were, um, any thoughts to share

sort of like, again, drawing some

523

: 00:35:51

of the real core messages out of

the book and with our audience here?

524

: 00:35:55

Yeah.

525

: 00:35:57

Well, so let's put an

exclamation mark on your trees.

526

: 00:36:01

Do not live alone.

527

: 00:36:03

And Beth writes a beautiful chapter on

soil and so much incredible research

528

: 00:36:11

done by Suzanne Ard and others about

those amazing interconnected webs.

529

: 00:36:19

530

: 00:36:19

That Nature magazine dubbed wood wide

web that is operating underground.

531

: 00:36:25

This whole network, especially of

the mycelial, this fungal network

532

: 00:36:30

that is exchanging messages, that

is, um, exchanging nutrients,

533

: 00:36:36

that is connecting hundreds of

trees potentially within a forest.

534

: 00:36:41

So a forest is not alone.

535

: 00:36:44

If you are a hub tree or a mother

tree and you are removed from that

536

: 00:36:49

forest, the whole interconnected

web is destroyed in some way.

537

: 00:36:54

Maybe not totally, but in some way.

538

: 00:36:57

There's devastation to that web

and so that's at one level what's

539

: 00:37:03

going on At another level, it is

the interaction between the plants,

540

: 00:37:09

the forests, and the people.

541

: 00:37:11

So we know more now about how

indigenous peoples have tended

542

: 00:37:16

forests over the years there.

543

: 00:37:18

It seems that it was a misconception

in the United States or what has now

544

: 00:37:22

become the United States, that Europeans

came and thought these were all wild.

545

: 00:37:28

But there was a whole set of cultivation,

a whole set of relationships that

546

: 00:37:33

was happening between the indigenous

peoples who were living here and

547

: 00:37:37

respecting the trees and caring for

them as best they could, whether that

548

: 00:37:41

was about fire, whether that was about

cultivating chestnuts or whatever.

549

: 00:37:46

Then there's the capacity for the

trees as forests to shape the weather,

550

: 00:37:54

to shape the patterns that impact

areas far beyond the forest itself.

551

: 00:38:02

So surely the trees are shaping the

weather, the forest, but they're

552

: 00:38:06

also helping to shape our weather.

553

: 00:38:09

There's nothing that is living apart.

554

: 00:38:12

And so one of the things that maybe

I will get to Darwin here, one of the

555

: 00:38:18

things that, uh, what do you think, Beth?

556

: 00:38:21

Shall I, shall I go?

557

: 00:38:22

You always do.

558

: 00:38:25

So, um, you know, we talk about

survival of the fittest, right?

559

: 00:38:32

And make it as if that is a law of

nature and therefore one we should obey.

560

: 00:38:38

And I would say that's kind of running

rampant in our society right now.

561

: 00:38:43

Um, and I'm living here in the United

States, so some of you know what I'm, what

562

: 00:38:48

I'm speaking about that this idea that the

powerful are, should be the ones in charge

563

: 00:38:54

and the fittest should have the resources.

564

: 00:38:58

Okay?

565

: 00:38:59

Darwin did not write that in the first

four editions of on the origin of species.

566

: 00:39:04

It.

567

: 00:39:04

The word was fit, survival of the fit.

568

: 00:39:09

And Janine Bennis, who writes a lot

about biomimicry, has a beautiful

569

: 00:39:14

passage in her writing and speaking

where she says, that's the invitation

570

: 00:39:19

for us to be fit for the community,

for the ecosystem in which we live.

571

: 00:39:26

Because we are a part of an ecosystem.

572

: 00:39:29

What do we need to do to be fit for that?

573

: 00:39:34

And whether you think this is about

spirituality or whether you think

574

: 00:39:38

it's strong common sense is not as

important to me as the fact that we

575

: 00:39:44

might all be asking that question.

576

: 00:39:47

How am I fit?

577

: 00:39:48

How have I shaped myself?

578

: 00:39:50

How am I continuing to shape myself

to support this ecosystem that is

579

: 00:39:55

supporting me in which I live, in

which I breathe, where I drink?

580

: 00:40:02

Where I eat, and not just for my

own sake, but for the sake of all

581

: 00:40:10

of the kin in that wider space.

582

: 00:40:15

Okay.

583

: 00:40:15

End of that sermon, Beth.

584

: 00:40:18

Well, I would just quickly add, one of

the things that I think we both learned

585

: 00:40:22

from trees is that in the midst of all

of this connectivity and collaboration

586

: 00:40:29

and fit this, that each individual also

has value and the tree has her own life

587

: 00:40:38

and she is doing her very best to get as

much of that scoop up, as much of that

588

: 00:40:44

sunshine is as she can or as she needs.

589

: 00:40:48

I should say that a difference

between us and trees, by the way.

590

: 00:40:53

And so each individual tree has its own,

has her own value and importance in life.

591

: 00:41:02

In the midst of this community,

this invaluable community, this

592

: 00:41:09

inextricable is a word that we

use a lot connection that she has.

593

: 00:41:13

And so I don't want that to get lost

in this, that we're not suggesting

594

: 00:41:18

that each individual isn't of value.

595

: 00:41:21

That the trees teach us that

each has value in and of herself

596

: 00:41:28

and within the community.

597

: 00:41:30

Yeah.

598

: 00:41:30

If I can tag into the, um, studied

a lot of evolutionary biology.

599

: 00:41:35

So Lee, I want to go with you into the

Darwin zone, um, you know, and explore the

600

: 00:41:40

fit thing and maybe put forward a thing

for you and Beth to, to comment on here.

601

: 00:41:46

Um.

602

: 00:41:47

You know, within that the fitness

of an individual or a species or

603

: 00:41:53

you know, is measured in fitness for

the environment they're in, for the

604

: 00:41:57

contextual situation that they're in,

that that fitness is being measured in.

605

: 00:42:02

And I think sometimes where, you know,

where I, part of what I think about, when

606

: 00:42:09

I think about, you know, the outdoors

and nature and stuff is, uh, I, I have

607

: 00:42:13

the benefit of living, you know, a

little bit north of New York City, but

608

: 00:42:17

also spending time in New York City.

609

: 00:42:18

And it, it is hard for certain plants

to survive and thrive in the same,

610

: 00:42:23

you know, in New York City that

can survive and thrive in my yard.

611

: 00:42:27

Right?

612

: 00:42:27

They're two different environments and

contextuals and I guess we have influence

613

: 00:42:32

on the environment or which things

are being measured for fitness, right?

614

: 00:42:37

Like we have influence on like the

situation, environment maybe is like an

615

: 00:42:40

a too big of a term, but the situation.

616

: 00:42:44

And that's something that we can

look at as well and, and recognize

617

: 00:42:48

that some things can succeed

and grow and flourish in some

618

: 00:42:53

environments well, but not in others.

619

: 00:42:55

Right.

620

: 00:42:55

And so if we now take this back to

trees, you know, that we've got this

621

: 00:42:58

classic hardiness zones and you know,

that I think that's used in more than

622

: 00:43:02

just North America, but I think it

applies in Europe and and all over.

623

: 00:43:05

Right.

624

: 00:43:06

And, and it's these sort of like weather

pattern driven standards and expectations.

625

: 00:43:10

And that speaks to us about like, well we

can know sort of what kind of tree species

626

: 00:43:15

are fit in which hardiness zone or right.

627

: 00:43:18

In, in what microclimate.

628

: 00:43:20

And I'm curious if there are, you know,

if you're thinking about that and the

629

: 00:43:23

Darwinian concept of fitness, are there

any lessons that you sort of, I, I don't

630

: 00:43:28

remember seeing this in the book, but

maybe it, was there any lessons or sort of

631

: 00:43:32

wisdom around that, like finding the space

for which your fit or learning lessons

632

: 00:43:38

around where your fitness shows up.

633

: 00:43:43

Hmm, well, we'll put that

in volume two, right Leah?

634

: 00:43:48

We'll bring Brian in.

635

: 00:43:49

I think that we, we talk a little

bit, uh, on the edges of that.

636

: 00:43:56

We talk about the fact that we've

gotten too big for our britches.

637

: 00:43:59

And so in terms of our fit, uh, within

an ecosystem, we are not, I'll be so

638

: 00:44:06

bold as to suggest that we are not

fitting well as humans within our home

639

: 00:44:11

ecosystems now because we take too much

and we take more than we need, and we

640

: 00:44:19

take what we want instead of what we need.

641

: 00:44:22

And so we do.

642

: 00:44:23

Talk a little bit about that,

this idea of finding your fitness.

643

: 00:44:28

One of the lessons from the trees that we

do talk about in, I think it was Jen who

644

: 00:44:33

talked about the Acorn before, is that

each acorn, it was Joseph Campbell said.

645

: 00:44:42

Has the potential to be that

oak that's inside of her.

646

: 00:44:48

And that's goes to human fitness as well.

647

: 00:44:51

What is our purpose?

648

: 00:44:54

How are we to be?

649

: 00:44:57

And that being with the trees can help

us, by calming us, by deepening our

650

: 00:45:04

experience of, of other beings can

help us listen for our own purpose.

651

: 00:45:13

I'm very tall and people always

tell me that I'm like an oak.

652

: 00:45:16

I, I'm not sure I take that a little

personally, but I'm not gonna be an oak.

653

: 00:45:22

But who am I meant to be in this

beautiful ecosystem in which I live?

654

: 00:45:28

And I do think we, we offer, some

of these practices are designed

655

: 00:45:32

to answer just that question.

656

: 00:45:34

Uh, Leah likes to say so beautifully.

657

: 00:45:36

What is ours to do?

658

: 00:45:38

Uh, and then I would

suggest what is ours to be?

659

: 00:45:43

And I think the forest informs that,

and I wanted to say this earlier.

660

: 00:45:49

I think it's so important too, as one of

the lessons that, that I have had to learn

661

: 00:45:53

over and over again from the trees is that

the beautiful white oak that lives outside

662

: 00:46:00

my window only wants to be a white oak.

663

: 00:46:04

She's not trying to be anything other

than what she was meant to be from

664

: 00:46:09

the moment her acorn was developed.

665

: 00:46:13

And she is good enough, she's

good enough as a white oak.

666

: 00:46:22

She's not going to a gem trying to be

more fit again, that word, you know,

667

: 00:46:27

she's not competing to see how many books

she's written, you know, she's just.

668

: 00:46:33

Trying to be the best old oak, the

white oak that she was meant to be.

669

: 00:46:38

She's not envious of the red oak

'cause the leaves are nicer over there.

670

: 00:46:46

That's a a, a partial oak answer to your

question about finding ourself and who

671

: 00:46:53

we are meant to be in that shell that's

being cracked open routinely these days.

672

: 00:47:00

So I wanna add a bit to that if I can.

673

: 00:47:02

And it goes back to Banja talking about

attention, you know, giving attention.

674

: 00:47:07

So I think this is a two part journey.

675

: 00:47:11

I'm gonna say this, but it's really all

one, but I'm gonna tell it as if it's two.

676

: 00:47:16

There is that journey to understand

who we are called to be and what gifts

677

: 00:47:21

we are bringing to the world that, you

know, what will we do, what's ours to do?

678

: 00:47:27

And that journey has to be taken

along with the conversation.

679

: 00:47:32

That we need to have with the living

world about what do you need from me?

680

: 00:47:38

How do we together co-create what is being

invited or maybe what's already unfolding

681

: 00:47:46

and where are we asked to join in?

682

: 00:47:49

And understanding that invitation held

alongside with our gifts is so important.

683

: 00:47:58

Otherwise we move it back to that eco

ego-centric place of what do I wanna do?

684

: 00:48:05

Who do I wanna be, rather

than what do you need?

685

: 00:48:11

And what gifts do I have to offer?

686

: 00:48:14

And those journeys have

to have to be all one.

687

: 00:48:18

That just brings to mind the line from

Mary Oliver's poem, what, what will you

688

: 00:48:23

do with your one wild and precious life?

689

: 00:48:26

Mm-hmm.

690

: 00:48:28

Well, we're skirting all around,

you know, pay attention, be

691

: 00:48:31

astonished, tell about it too.

692

: 00:48:33

So Mary Oliver is whether we've made

her name explicit or not, she's kind

693

: 00:48:38

of with us in this conversation.

694

: 00:48:41

That's beautiful.

695

: 00:48:42

I have another question.

696

: 00:48:44

It is touching on something you just said

a second ago, Liam, that struck me, and it

697

: 00:48:47

was one of the questions I was like asking

about the process of writing a book.

698

: 00:48:51

And in this case, you know, my

wife is an author and I sort

699

: 00:48:53

of get to witness her process.

700

: 00:48:56

In this case, you've co-written a

book and, and Leah you were sort of

701

: 00:48:59

just talking about like co-writing

this story and all this kinda stuff.

702

: 00:49:02

Mm-hmm.

703

: 00:49:02

Can you like, share a little

bit about how, how that process

704

: 00:49:06

evolved for you two in co-writing?

705

: 00:49:08

There's a lot of emotion in this book and

a lot of like vulnerability that shows

706

: 00:49:12

up in this book and, and really beautiful

stuff, you know, and so I'm curious

707

: 00:49:17

how that co-authoring process worked.

708

: 00:49:19

You wanna start that one?

709

: 00:49:21

Well, first of all, it was.

710

: 00:49:23

A privilege.

711

: 00:49:24

And I mean, that's so sincerely I'll, I'll

get into the mechanics for just a second,

712

: 00:49:30

but being a part of this conversation

with Leah on a regular basis, what a joy.

713

: 00:49:36

I mean, it was, it was a ton of fun.

714

: 00:49:38

Um, we had started by trying to meld our

voices and, and co-writing each chapter.

715

: 00:49:46

And then we realized that our gifts

and our voice and voices and our

716

: 00:49:51

perspectives were really quite different.

717

: 00:49:54

And so we wanted to co-write the first

chapter to talk a little bit about

718

: 00:49:59

our journeys and what spirituality

meant to us, uh, means to us.

719

: 00:50:04

But then we wanted to, we divvied

the world of trees up, uh, according

720

: 00:50:10

to how we felt our voices and

gifts would be best received.

721

: 00:50:16

And then we edited each other's chapters.

722

: 00:50:19

We added to each other's chapters.

723

: 00:50:20

I have paragraphs.

724

: 00:50:22

In my chapters that you could

probably tell where they are.

725

: 00:50:25

They're so beautiful.

726

: 00:50:26

They're, they're Leah's.

727

: 00:50:28

So, and I threw into some

stories in her chapters.

728

: 00:50:33

So that's how we did it.

729

: 00:50:34

And then we, of course, both read

each other's work and edited it

730

: 00:50:37

and, and talked it through and

talked and talked and talked.

731

: 00:50:43

Oh my goodness.

732

: 00:50:44

What a joy.

733

: 00:50:45

Yeah.

734

: 00:50:46

So who we all want to take it from there.

735

: 00:50:48

Yeah.

736

: 00:50:48

Well that, that is true.

737

: 00:50:49

And uh, you know, the fact that we're

willing to go on podcasts together

738

: 00:50:54

and be in the same room tonight doing

book talks and signing, I think is

739

: 00:50:59

a testament to how well it worked.

740

: 00:51:02

I think as we went along, we learned from

each other, and so I'd like to think that

741

: 00:51:09

what might have started out as fairly

different styles of writing kind of melded

742

: 00:51:14

into one that wouldn't be too jarring

for the reader, so that you probably

743

: 00:51:19

could tell different voices, but not so

much that it felt like a different book.

744

: 00:51:25

And I think Beth is absolutely right.

745

: 00:51:26

The learning from each other was

just really, was really great.

746

: 00:51:30

We have a similar style of being

organized and when we commit

747

: 00:51:36

to doing something, we do it.

748

: 00:51:39

And I think that saved us because that

might've been an obstacle too great to

749

: 00:51:45

overcome for either of us, for each of us.

750

: 00:51:50

Yeah.

751

: 00:51:52

Well, and then a lot of mutual

respect, you think at the, at the base.

752

: 00:51:56

Yeah.

753

: 00:51:58

Seems like a lot of fun, a lot of

co-learning, and I'm sure there were a

754

: 00:52:01

lot of good laughs along the way as well.

755

: 00:52:04

Well, and we sort of pulled each

other back from the edge occasionally.

756

: 00:52:07

So you're married to a writer, you know

that sometimes that's helpful to have

757

: 00:52:11

somebody who says this too will pass.

758

: 00:52:14

You know?

759

: 00:52:14

Right, right.

760

: 00:52:15

So, yeah.

761

: 00:52:16

Yeah.

762

: 00:52:17

So in a couple ways or

here, you should eat.

763

: 00:52:19

Um, yeah.

764

: 00:52:20

Yes, yes.

765

: 00:52:21

Beth was often telling

me to take a vacation.

766

: 00:52:23

You know, I didn't often listen,

but it was good to be told.

767

: 00:52:29

Thanks for asking that.

768

: 00:52:30

It was fun.

769

: 00:52:31

And we feel like that it really

did create a synergy so that.

770

: 00:52:37

What we have written collectively

is more than either of us would've

771

: 00:52:42

been able to write individually.

772

: 00:52:44

So thanks.

773

: 00:52:46

What is next for you?

774

: 00:52:47

Do, are you have any other

projects brewing together?

775

: 00:52:52

Well, talking about this book together,

so we have a number of bookstores.

776

: 00:52:59

We're, well, a small number, but a

number of bookstores we're showing

777

: 00:53:02

up in and doing talks and retreats

that we're collaborating on.

778

: 00:53:08

And we have our own individual

paths that we're taking as well.

779

: 00:53:12

I'm writing a weekly substack

essay now, which is not exactly

780

: 00:53:18

what I thought I would do.

781

: 00:53:19

Like more writing.

782

: 00:53:21

So there are other things.

783

: 00:53:22

Beth.

784

: 00:53:23

Beth is, I don't wanna say

more, but Beth enjoys speaking.

785

: 00:53:28

I enjoy retreat leadership.

786

: 00:53:29

I think she does too.

787

: 00:53:31

We're open.

788

: 00:53:32

We'll see how it plays out.

789

: 00:53:34

Feel free to book us.

790

: 00:53:38

We're marketing the book together.

791

: 00:53:40

And that's, yeah.

792

: 00:53:42

Less fun than the writing

the book together all their,

793

: 00:53:45

well, the podcasts are fun.

794

: 00:53:46

I'll say that.

795

: 00:53:49

And then, but the calling up people

and telling them why they should, uh,

796

: 00:53:52

bring us to their bookstore is less fun.

797

: 00:53:55

I was gonna quote what someone

wrote about your book here, and,

798

: 00:53:59

and this is Mary Evelyn Talker,

and she said, what a treasure.

799

: 00:54:05

This book captures the extraordinary power

of trees to engage human in a reciprocal

800

: 00:54:12

relationship that transcends words.

801

: 00:54:16

And, and I think that's just beautiful.

802

: 00:54:19

That's super beautiful.

803

: 00:54:20

It's a great description of your book.

804

: 00:54:21

So again, great work that

you, you guys have done.

805

: 00:54:25

Our podcast is often listened to by.

806

: 00:54:29

People that are super interested

in sustainability, in climate

807

: 00:54:33

change, in, in things like that.

808

: 00:54:35

I'm sure this is gonna be fun for them.

809

: 00:54:37

Super, super, super fun.

810

: 00:54:39

'cause it's been fun for us and

I wanted you to perhaps speak to

811

: 00:54:43

them a little bit more directly.

812

: 00:54:46

And, and my question here is if,

let's imagine a future, right?

813

: 00:54:50

So if more people embrace the spiritual

wisdom of trees and some of the things

814

: 00:54:55

that you're teaching in this book

and through your courses and all the

815

: 00:54:59

interesting things you have going

on, what future do you imagine for

816

: 00:55:03

our planets, for us as a species,

as humans, you know, generally.

817

: 00:55:10

So I'll jump in Beth

on that if that's okay.

818

: 00:55:13

So I wrote the chapter on grief and so

much of the grief that I, that I think

819

: 00:55:21

we feel about forests and trees ease

is because of actions we have taken.

820

: 00:55:29

So certainly there are natural disasters

that befall trees and forests, but

821

: 00:55:34

when we look at the large scale

decimation of trees and forests,

822

: 00:55:41

so much of that is human caused.

823

: 00:55:45

If we were really paying attention, if

we were really deeply connected to trees,

824

: 00:55:52

if we had come to so fully respect,

appreciate and feel gratitude for the

825

: 00:56:01

role that they play in all life on earth,

because they are regulating earth systems,

826

: 00:56:09

not simply little gifts for us, because

we walk through a forest and feel good.

827

: 00:56:15

Although that's important, if we

really understood that capacity

828

: 00:56:21

that trees have to give life.

829

: 00:56:26

I would hope and pray that would

lead to a change of our actions.

830

: 00:56:34

I think if you really love and respect

an individual, let's say we love and

831

: 00:56:40

respect each other, then we are gonna

want what is best for that person.

832

: 00:56:46

And that should be the case for trees too.

833

: 00:56:50

And then I would also say, you'll

note that there was a little part

834

: 00:56:52

where I, where I did an audit of

trees in my house, like what it would

835

: 00:56:58

probably took to build a fairly small

place that my husband and I live in.

836

: 00:57:05

And it's shocking.

837

: 00:57:06

It's absolutely shocking.

838

: 00:57:08

So then the question

becomes how much of that is.

839

: 00:57:13

An honorable harvest to use the words of

Robin wa Kimer, where you take no more

840

: 00:57:18

than you need, you only take no more than

half you leave for the rest of the forest.

841

: 00:57:22

We could go on about that, but I won't.

842

: 00:57:24

And how much of that is thoughtless?

843

: 00:57:29

We could name the brands of toilet

paper that Jen are cutting down the

844

: 00:57:36

boreal forest in Canada to produce.

845

: 00:57:40

I'm saying that only because you're

from Canada, not, not because you

846

: 00:57:44

are cutting down the boreal forest.

847

: 00:57:47

Yeah.

848

: 00:57:48

So, you know, I, I just think wake up,

you know, we just have to awaken to

849

: 00:57:56

this incredible, wonderful, beautiful

living world, but also life sustaining,

850

: 00:58:02

vibrant ecosystem that we are part of.

851

: 00:58:06

That has been so many

billion years in the making.

852

: 00:58:11

And we have no right to destroy it in this

little wedge of time that we have here.

853

: 00:58:17

Well, Lebane, I would, I would add that

we have seen firsthand within ourselves

854

: 00:58:23

and within the classes transformation of

which you're alluding that as we fall in

855

: 00:58:33

love with the forest, if we, we want to,

as Leah said, we want to not harm them.

856

: 00:58:43

One of the exercises we have in the book,

as you'll see, is we send people out.

857

: 00:58:47

We ask them to embrace a tree

literally or otherwise, and

858

: 00:58:52

ask what is it like to be you?

859

: 00:58:56

And the last question is, am

I doing anything to harm you?

860

: 00:59:01

And so we've seen this, we've

the filmmaker who filmed our

861

: 00:59:05

six week class that we do.

862

: 00:59:07

Now she's a, she's a wild woman now.

863

: 00:59:10

She's sold her gas guzzling cars.

864

: 00:59:14

She's all electric.

865

: 00:59:15

She has torn up all the

non-native plants in her yard.

866

: 00:59:20

She has an appreciation and love nurturing

the trees in her small yard in the city.

867

: 00:59:26

We've seen this transformation and you

know, our hope is that if more and more

868

: 00:59:31

people see first, see and pay attention to

trees and learn to love them because not

869

: 00:59:39

only of what they give, but what we can

give back, that our lives and lifestyles

870

: 00:59:44

will begin to change and raise that.

871

: 00:59:47

We all know that we need to, and

this is something we haven't talked

872

: 00:59:52

about, but our having done this work

for a while, I know Leah would agree

873

: 00:59:57

that in our heart we want this.

874

: 01:00:00

We're like children who have been spoiled.

875

: 01:00:03

We grew up anxious and.

876

: 01:00:07

And depressed because we have more

than we need and we're happier and

877

: 01:00:13

CarbonSessions

Episode 209

Conversation on Spiritual Wisdom of Trees with Beth Norcross and Leah Rampy

Transcript

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Jennifer Myers Chua