Episode 132
Discourses Of Climate Delay
Episode Summary: In this enlightening and fun episode, hosts Leekei, Jenn, Olabanji, and Kristina unpack the concept of "Discourses of Climate Delay." This term is based on a research paper published by the University of Cambridge with the same title.
The concept of "Discourses of Climate Delay," is a term that describes the subtle yet impactful ways people acknowledge climate change while advocating for minimal or postponed action.
Contrary to climate denial, these discourses accept the reality of climate change but argue for less urgent or less comprehensive solutions.
The discourses are grouped by the researchers in 4 main categories:
Redirect Responsibility: This discourse evades systemic solutions for climate change, often by shifting the focus onto individual actions or by invoking 'whataboutism' to point fingers at other countries or sectors that are perceived to contribute more to the problem.
Push Non-Transformative Solutions: This discourse advocates for incremental or ineffective solutions, such as relying solely on technological advances or market-based incentives, while ignoring the need for more comprehensive, transformative changes.
Emphasize the Downsides: This narrative focuses on the perceived negatives of taking climate action, such as economic costs or threats to existing ways of life, without adequately addressing the potentially greater costs of inaction or the benefits of transformative change.
Surrender: This discourse argues that climate change mitigation is either too challenging to be feasible (change is impossible) or already too late to matter (doomism), promoting a sense of futility and discouraging meaningful action.
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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Jenn Swanson and Kristina Horning
Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France.
From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and community Connector, helping people help themselves.
Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria. He’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work
Kristina is working on design theory and using the design process in everything. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US
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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.
Transcript
Hi, I'm Christina.
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:Hi, I'm Jen.
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:Hi, I'm Olabunji.
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:And hi, I'm Leakey.
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:Today, I would like to share a paper
that I found, I came across, on the
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:discourses of climate delay, and it's
a very serious paper that has been
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:researched by the University of Cambridge.
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:So this paper, it's quite interesting
because it kind of analyzes the
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:discourses, and uh, by discourses, I would
put in bracket excuses, of climate delay.
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:What does it mean, um,
discourses of climate delay?
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:It's those people, and when
I mention people, it could be
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:people, organizations, companies,
associations, whatever you want.
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:That's recognize that there is a
problem with climate change, but
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:they don't want to do anything.
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:And all they think that
there's nothing we can do.
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:And it's quite interesting to look
at how these causes are framed.
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:And, you know, I think it's quite
interesting to understand that and,
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:um, to recognize this pattern and,
um, And the sense, what we can.
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:Do to address this kind of discourses.
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:Discourses are organized
and this is something that's
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:Christina call it a wheel.
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:Is it a wheel or a pie?
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:Well, it's a wheel or a pie.
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:So they are classified in four categories.
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:One of the categories is
redirect responsibility.
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:And what, what does it mean?
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:Direct responsibility is those
people who say, okay, there's
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:a problem with climate change.
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:Yeah.
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:But I'm doing enough or I didn't do it.
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:I didn't do it.
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:I didn't.
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:It's not my problem.
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:I didn't create that.
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:And therefore, I don't want to
change the way I behave, the way
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:I produce, the way I consume.
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:People who adhere to the idea
of direct responsibility.
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:Another way of redirecting responsibility
could also be the free rider excuses
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:and the free rider excuses is, Okay,
well, I don't need to do anything.
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:, I don't need to do anything because
other people would be doing it.
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:Therefore, I would benefit from the
impact of what other people would do.
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:But I think that if we all have this kind
of discourses, nobody will take action.
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:And we will not.
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:Solve the climate problem.
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:Yeah.
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:It sounds a little bit like
the what's in it for me.
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:This is individualism.
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:Yeah.
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:What's in it for me?
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:, the question is that, have you ever had a
discussion with people, organization, or
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:companies that have this kind of discourse
and say, yeah, well it's, remember those
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:are the, the people who recognize this
is a problem but not doing anything.
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:So how does it make you
feel and what do you answer?
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:How do you respond?
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:I have been thinking about where people.
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:So when they have the individualism,
whataboutism, and the free rider
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:excuse, where, where did it start it?
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:So when somebody goes there, I try to
talk about something else and redirect
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:it to what they're already doing in a
group of people or in the organization.
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:And how really they're involved anyway,
even though they don't think they are.
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:Um, I was just going to say on,
on this topic, I'm looking at the,
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:the wheel or the pie or the chart.
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:Um, I've, I've heard people
say about airplanes, well, the
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:airplanes are going there anyway.
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:And I don't know if that fits in this
category, but it seems like it's a
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:good excuse for why it's okay to hop
on flights to go places all the time.
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:Is that, you know, such and such
is far worse than me hopping on
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:a plane, or such and such is far
worse than me driving my car, etc.
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:I think it fits in this category,
but what do you respond?
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:How do you respond to this kind of remark?
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:It depends probably on who it is, because
sometimes it feels like there's no point
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:if I know the person is super entrenched.
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:Um, if it's, if there is any kind of
window of saying, well, you know, every
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:little bit helps, um, maybe if If everyone
did a little bit, this would be different.
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:I go back to the leaf blowers.
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:I'm looking at leaf blowers
blowing leaves all over the place.
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:And just, so frustrating.
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:Um, and I tell everybody I
know how bad those things are.
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:But I think I have to do
something more than that because
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:that's not very effective.
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:So yeah, I think maybe, you know,
you telling people, um, your impact
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:will be one on one, but maybe if you
You managed to, uh, convince your
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:municipality to ban leaf blowers.
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:That will be a much more effective
impact, much bigger impact.
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:Yeah.
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:I think so.
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:Yeah.
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:That's true.
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:Because sometimes people
don't want to change.
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:That's the problem.
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:It's convenient, right?
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:Yes.
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:It's lying from one place to another.
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:It's so convenient.
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:It feels like everybody's overwhelmed
with other things, so they don't
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:want to add another thing on
top of their other commitments.
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:I mean, I think we've had this, we've
talked about this before on the podcast.
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:That people actually hardly change.
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:Most people resist change and
for the most part, combating the
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:climatic situation right now would
actually require a bit of change.
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:So alluding to or just making a comment
on what you said about airplanes,
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:someone might say just like you said,
well, the planes fly either way.
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:Either I fly or do not fly.
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:Most likely would not reduce the amount
of carbon emissions in the atmosphere.
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:Perhaps a great reply to the person
would be, if you do not fly and
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:you tell people why you don't fly,
perhaps we'll have enough people
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:that will not fly that frequently.
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:And that's what I told
my sister some days back.
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:It's like, well, Yeah, maybe it
wouldn't count like be very, very
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:hugely, significantly impactful
that you don't do it or you don't
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:get an award for not doing it.
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:Nobody sees or recognizes you in any
special kind of way, but you will
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:be making a significant change if
you even take it a step further and
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:tell people what you did not do and
the reasons why you didn't do them.
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:And maybe that gets one
more person on board.
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:And if that person gets one
more person on board sooner or
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:later, we would be better off.
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:I saw an interview where the interviewee
was asking a former American president.
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:So I wouldn't say his name.
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:Well, the former American president, the
interviewer, not the interviewee, uh,
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:the former president was the interviewee.
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:And he was asking about how he would
feel today about the climate crisis.
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:And he, he actually give
an intelligent response.
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:He says, He said it feels bad, depressing
to some extent, but he's hopeful because
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:when you look at it, the world has
recovered from very dire situations
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:in, I mean, years and years back.
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:And so it's not something
that we can't recover from.
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:And if we tell each other, which is
the great thing about what he said.
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:He said, if we tell each other, if
the temperature were to go just one
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:degree centigrade less, that could be a
thousand, a hundred thousand, a million
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:lives saved just from the maybe five,
two, three, five, 10 percent decrease
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:in the temperature that it could have
significant impact on the lives of people.
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:So what we're doing is not
for nothing, just, just saying
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:that as far as replies go.
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:Um, yeah, Nikki, do you want to,
do you want to go to the next one?
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:Well, actually what you, the example
you just gave, uh, makes me want to
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:jump to the next one, which is, uh, some
people, again, people, organizations or
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:companies or, uh, association believe
the change will be too disruptive.
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:And so there will be downsides
of change because of course for
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:every kind of change, uh, they all.
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:upside and downsides.
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:Those are the kind of people
believe that the, the downfall
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:will be too, too, too much.
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:And society as a whole would not be.
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:Able to integrate all the downside
and so those may want to find the
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:perfect policy, the perfect solution
that will be inclusive for everybody
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:and um, that, that nobody will be left
out if we implement this new solution.
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:Because that's true because um,
climate change is a big problem,
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:might require some real drastic
transformation of society.
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:If you look at the history, and
therefore for any revolution, it's
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:always been difficult for society.
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:So this kind of thinking is
that we don't do that because
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:it would be too disruptive, and
some people will be left out.
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:I don't know if you have ever discourses.
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:Well, all change hurts, right?
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:All change hurts.
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:But any great leap forward for
humanity has involved loss and
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:grief and struggle and learning.
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:And you just think about, you know, the
internet, how many people were suspicious.
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:Think about the radio, how many
people were suspicious, right?
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:And, oh, I'm never going to do that.
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:And the people that hold out,
uh, until they have to be dragged
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:into it out of complete necessity.
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:It's really, really difficult
to book a hotel room to do
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:anything without the internet.
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:I'm not talking about suspicion
because, um, it's just some, it's
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:change that it's just not socially
inclusive or economically inclusive,
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:does not include everybody.
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:So there will be some people that
will be on the wrong sides of change.
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:Right, but what I'm, what I mean by that
is that it, it, the disruption is so
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:big to try and do what we want to do.
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:It feels so big to some people that
it's too much to even try because
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:you will get that camp of people who
are not wanting to come along, right?
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:Anytime there's a change, there's the
people out front, hey, let's do it.
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:There's the people in the middle
that go along and there's the
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:people you have to drag into it
and it's just, it can be massive.
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:And so sometimes it's too much
work to do that disruption.
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:It's a bit of a laissez
faire attitude, right?
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:Yeah.
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:I think the other thing is excuses, right?
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:And I think this is partly what this
part of the wheel is also about, is
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:about excuses to not do what is needed or
what is right, if that makes any sense.
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:So disruptive change is not necessary.
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:So, I mean, that's how they think
about it, um, because they...
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:mostly want to remove themselves from
the equation or from the idea that
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:there is an impact that I can have.
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:And so part of it is the
technological optimisms.
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:It's like, let's focus on what
technology brings and let's continue
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:to adapt to that or lean on the
breakthroughs of technology.
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:Or the second part, which is, which
actually sticks out to me a lot.
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:It's like all talk and very, very
tiny action or no action at all.
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:So we explain things away
with some big grammar.
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:Like, like I know someone does.
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:Uh, reminds...
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:We're not finger pointing.
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:Yeah, it was not, not doing that
because it's so easy to do that,
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:man.
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:I know someone that he
just explains things.
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:He's so great at explaining, uh,
speaks big, like big English.
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:That's any word, but never does
anything, never does anything.
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:Like if, if it tells you it's
morning, you need to open the curtain
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:and check if it's morning outside.
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:So,
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:so you're sure that you're not being
deceived, but he, he'll beautifully
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:tell you it's morning, the cock is
just cruel, the sun's just shining
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:and you're like, Oh, let me check.
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:And then you see it's night.
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:It's not action.
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:And so all talk and action, but I think.
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:One of the things that they do not
realize, or one of the things that
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:sponsors this kind of reaction to climate
discourses, or which maybe sponsors
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:the delay on their end, is the idea
that the change has to be very big,
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:and the change is something that they
can't make, so they try to mentally
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:stand up to it, whilst practically not
actually do it, so The, I mean, they
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:see the change as something very big.
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:So, but what, what might be helpful
on their end is to let them know that,
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:well, it's, it can start as simple
as insulating your house properly or
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:telling your friends to do certain
things or offering to shop for the
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:next, your next door neighbor, or.
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:Not using leaf blowers or lawn mowers
or using electric wands or starting
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:a food forest instead of a garden.
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:Like, it's not that hard.
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:There's a thousand and one things
you can start to do that will
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:make people start to question you.
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:You do things differently.
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:Why are you doing them like this?
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:Well, because I care about the climate
or because this is happening and I think
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:there's something we can do to combat it.
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:And maybe these are the advantages of it.
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:And people will learn from each other as,
as humanity, when someone does something.
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:Um, we sort of want to imitate
that, especially if it's something
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:that is worthy of emulation.
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:Um, so yeah, that's, that's
the, that's the other thing.
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:I think one key thing there is
to consider the change to be
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:like some really huge thing that
can only be captured in grammar.
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:rather than, um, action.
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:So I'll tell them when I come across
them to start small, start from
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:where they are, consider something
tiny that they can change and
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:maybe work their way up from there.
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:I agree because people don't think
they can have much effect, but if
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:everyone did something, yeah, it's huge.
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:Yeah.
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:That reminded me, uh, an
example of people, one family in
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:Calgary in typical neighborhood.
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:that had just the typical short
grass in front of the houses.
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:They started permaculture,
garden, the food forest you were
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:talking a whole bunch about.
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:And, uh, they had some push against
them, but in, I would say in
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:about two seasons, people started
realizing how Wonderful, it is.
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:And, uh, and they kind of transferred the
whole neighborhood that started looking at
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:the permaculture and food forest ideas and
that it can look beautiful in the city.
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:So, yeah, I love these little
examples that can happen.
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:And sometimes I think we
overlook the downsides of
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:change and, um, it's not true.
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:It's like, you know, I don't know about
how it's like in your countries, but.
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:Maybe 20 years ago, organic food was
considered, ok, it's something very
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:important to have, to eat healthy foods.
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:But organic was not an option,
especially for canteens, because
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:it was deemed too expensive.
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:It's something that we couldn't
do it, we couldn't afford.
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:But now, I think more and more canteens
have converted into organic produce
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:and I think this kind of practices
start to spread in other areas as well,
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:like, you know, even non organic food
growers start to use those small organic
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:practices in their food production.
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:So, I would say to complete what, um,
what we have shared here is that We
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:might overlook the importance of change.
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:The other thing is that it
doesn't have to be that big.
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:The third thing I would say is that
just starts doing something might
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:give ideas to other people because you
can be an inspiration whether you are
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:a person or a company or a country.
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:Yeah.
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:Yes!
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:Yeah, it can be contagious.
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:Contagious.
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:That's a really beautiful way to put it.
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:It's actually contagious.
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:And I think one of the best parts of
taking lethal actions is being proud
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:of it and actually talking about it.
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:Because talking about
it indoctrinates others.
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:They might not listen the first time.
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:If you have a beautiful food forest,
for example, and someone comes to your
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:house and you offer them a nice fruits
and they're like, Oh, this tastes great.
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:Where did you get it from?
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:Or this is really fresh, you know,
it's like, well, I have a food forest
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:behind or somewhere around the house.
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:That's how I got it.
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:Um, for the sake of, you know, being
in vogue as well, or doing something
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:nice, just like you did, they would
sort of be inspired to do similar.
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:So I think it's also been
proud to talk about it.
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:It's probably the most
important part, to be honest.
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:Like if nobody asks you, go ahead and
talk about it, start the conversation.
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:Oh, I mean, I'm just thinking about it.
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:It might seem weird going to a
neighbor and saying, Hey, man,
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:let, let me shop for you this week.
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:What, what do you want to buy?
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:Make me a list.
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:Okay.
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:Sorry.
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:Sorry.
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:What's going on?
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:And, and, and they go, well,
thanks for the kindness, but no,
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:I like shopping myself, it's like,
why do you want to shop for me?
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:And, and even if you don't end up
shopping for that neighbor, If they
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:ask why and you get a chance to explain
why even if they don't let you do the
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:shopping, it's still a win because now
you just told one more person about
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:climate change, what's possible and
certain things that should be done.
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:And so that's, that's probably
even more impactful than the
308
:shopping because you just planted
a seed, if that makes any sense.
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:It'd be pretty weird, anyway,
for a neighbor to walk up to me
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:and say, let me shop for you.
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:I'm like, hold up, hold up.
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:Yeah.
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:But there are, there are many
examples, um, like that for sure.
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:I, um, I heard a story the
other day, um, three of our
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:kids work in the film industry.
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:Two of them were telling, they
worked on the same set, and
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:they were telling me this story.
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:They have food provided
for them, um, all the time.
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:Um, they've got, um, snacks, and
then they've got actual meals
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:that they can have at any time,
any day, whatever they want.
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:There's a lot of waste.
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:And I guess the food company decided to
try meatless Mondays, which is a thing.
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:And they tried to serve food without meat.
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:Well, there was this entire
uprising, um, and, and my, my son and
325
:daughter in law were quite dismayed.
326
:And, and she got very passionate about it.
327
:And she said, it's one day.
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:It's one day you could eat vegetables.
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:Anyway, she went off.
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:She was just so mad that the whole thing
was so upsetting to people because it
331
:was one day out of the whole entire week
when they got as much as they wanted.
332
:But the, the organization that
made the food was trying to do
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:something small to make a difference.
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:Yeah.
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:And sometimes it takes a long
time and a lot of education before
336
:you can get people on board.
337
:Yeah.
338
:Totally agree.
339
:I'm glad they tried and
maybe they'll try it again.
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:But that's an example of where
it didn't go over that well.
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:I think maybe had they
done some education first.
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:It might have worked better.
343
:Yeah, I think the what's good about
what they did is next time that happens
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:to any of them, the people that were
present there, it will seem less weird.
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:It's like, oh, well, we've
been through this before.
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:Just serve the vegetables.
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:We'll eat it.
348
:Yeah, I think you all just kind
of addressed another category.
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:Is that disruptive
change is not necessary.
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:And those kind of thinking pushes
for non transformative solutions.
351
:Like, you know, a small thing,
and we talk about grand ideas,
352
:but we don't do big, big things.
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:Because it's um, I guess it's too big.
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:And also another reason why some
people, organizations, , hide behind
355
:this kind of discourses is that , they
are technologically optimists.
356
:So they are waiting for perfect
solution to, that will solve everything.
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:And so I think this is quite interesting
as well, this kind of thinking.
358
:Yeah.
359
:Have you ever had this kind
of, um, conversation, this kind
360
:of discourses with someone?
361
:Typically, you know, it's like, you
know, we don't, and again, we're going
362
:back to, we're going back to flying.
363
:Uh, we don't need to, to consider
how we go from one place to another.
364
:We can keep taking the plane because
one day the, we will find a solution to
365
:fly , , that will not increase a carbon
emission or there will, we'll find a
366
:solution that will absorb enough carbon.
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:So.
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:That's fine.
369
:Well, this solution will come or we
can, yeah, typically also you have,
370
:um, , the technological optimist , who
strongly believe that we'll find
371
:a solution, , to solve a problem,
therefore we don't need to consume less
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:because, um, we have solutions like,
you know, nuclear fission is coming.
373
:We have also, uh, , geothermal
energy, geothermal energy, yeah.
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:So we'll find a way to use that and
have unlimited resources of energy.
375
:Yeah.
376
:Well, and this past week, um,
Texas has realized, I mean, they
377
:got above 110 degrees Fahrenheit.
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:Wow.
379
:Which is like 40 something in
cent, in, in Celsius, I think.
380
:I think it's more.
381
:But yeah, it's, it's something big.
382
:It's something big.
383
:I can't do the conversion, but
they were saying you couldn't, you
384
:know, you could barely go outside.
385
:It was, if you didn't have
air conditioning, you'd
386
:be seriously in trouble.
387
:And they were talking about, um, they
were interviewing somebody on our, our
388
:national program about energy consumption
and how they're going to have to.
389
:increase that and, and, and not,
uh, strain the grid because it,
390
:this is just sort of, this is June.
391
:This wasn't even in July or August, um,
and they were talking about how there's
392
:not a lot of infrastructure in many
places for this kind of temperature.
393
:Um, well, you know, it was a heat
dome similar to what we had a couple
394
:of years ago that that we had a lots
of people succumb to and, um, and so
395
:I think in some ways we can push it
off and push it off and push it off.
396
:But there's evidence around everywhere
you look that you can only push
397
:it off for so long before it's
going to personally have an impact.
398
:And that makes total sense because
one of the reasons that The
399
:technological optimists, so to say,
are that way is because they do
400
:not think that the catastrophe is
at a level or relatively imminent.
401
:So they might think that is still far
off and we'll walk away on whatever
402
:solution comes that doesn't require
us to stop eating meat before then.
403
:But yeah, I think that's one of
the thing that sponsors that.
404
:Because when you, when you consider
that this is bad and it's bad now,
405
:it's more motivating to do something
about it than when you're told it's
406
:like, it's way, way into the future.
407
:I mean, when we were in school, we
would study, we know what it feels
408
:like to study for an exam two days
to it, rather than preparing, rather
409
:than preparing adequately before time.
410
:Oh, yeah, I like that analogy.
411
:It's it's really nice.
412
:Yeah, I mean, I know what it's like
because I've been in a position where I
413
:started preparing for the exam two days.
414
:to it.
415
:Um, I was literally reading like I
was, I was reading till I entered
416
:the hall and then I dropped
the book to go write the exam.
417
:It was that bad.
418
:Uh, cramming.
419
:Yeah.
420
:And then when you, when you studied
this way, you don't remember.
421
:And the whole point is not to pass the
exam is , the point is to learn the
422
:stuff and then for the rest of your life.
423
:But yeah.
424
:So, but I'm sidetracked.
425
:Yeah.
426
:So are you saying that we're, we're
cramming for the climate change?
427
:Is that what you're saying?
428
:Right.
429
:I mean, I was there.
430
:I was sweaty.
431
:I was tensed.
432
:I was scared that I didn't read
something and it was going to come out.
433
:And that happened, man.
434
:I, I passed by, um, man, I
was hanging on by a thread.
435
:I was literally hanging on by a thread.
436
:So it's, uh, I think that's the case
for, you can explain something away
437
:when it's not in front of you, right?
438
:And, and this is also particular for,
this is also likely to be coming from
439
:people that may not have experienced
any catastrophe or the impact of climate
440
:change firsthand, because if you have, You
likely will be telling a different story.
441
:Yeah, it's, you know,
it's happening over there.
442
:Yeah.
443
:But we're okay.
444
:I think Christina's
burning to say something.
445
:You guys, that reminded me, the
technological optimism, I think it was
446
:one of the prompts that made us start
connecting the carbon dots, connecting
447
:the dots on the carbon almanac.
448
:Because we want to have simple
problems, simple solution,
449
:and it never works like that.
450
:There's so many other connections.
451
:So for example.
452
:The solution, technical solution for
sequestering carbon is creating other
453
:problems or in other industries,
they try to solve one thing, but
454
:they create more problems in the
other, not seeing the whole picture.
455
:And it seems like technical
solutions are taking care of
456
:just one little narrow thing.
457
:. I would like to add something to that,
um, to the technological optimist, uh,
458
:because technology adaptation requires
some time because you need to research
459
:the technology and then deploy it.
460
:And by deploying it is that you need to
find the application in the industry,
461
:make it mainstream, widespread, and
also build infrastructure for it.
462
:And that , that will not happen overnight.
463
:So , that is, I think, one of the big
problem for, um, for the perfect solution.
464
:Yeah, so one drip at a time.
465
:Yeah.
466
:And study, study before you write an exam.
467
:Oh my God.
468
:That rhymed, that rhymed,
469
:that rhymed.
470
:One drip at a time.
471
:Study before you write your exam.
472
:You should probably write us a rap.
473
:Man, I should be rapping.
474
:I should be wrap.
475
:Carpet.
476
:Wrapping.
477
:The carbon wrap.
478
:Wrap.
479
:Just kind of wrap the common wrap.
480
:Are we gonna wrap?
481
:Wrap?
482
:Okay.
483
:One last, one last
category before we wrap.
484
:We go.
485
:This is , the thinking that that
pushes people to surrender because
486
:there's kind of thinking that beliefs
that it's not possible mitigate
487
:climate change because it's too late.
488
:So why bother try to do something
because it's not possible.
489
:We're all gonna die.
490
:That is your self indicator.
491
:Well, it's, it's doom.
492
:It's doom and gloom.
493
:But it has been these causes of...
494
:Love people, actually.
495
:Some people that, in private,
they will never say it out loud.
496
:But in private conversations,
and I would not name anyone.
497
:But I had this kind of conversation
with people, it's like, okay,
498
:well, whatever, you know, we'll
die anyway, because it's too late.
499
:So what do you answer that,
to that kind of, um, thinking?
500
:Yeah.
501
:Hope is one of the, um, intrinsic
qualities of humanity, of
502
:anything that's living, actually.
503
:And, um, and I think it's very strong.
504
:And so if there are, um, , having
worked intensely with people going
505
:through trauma, et cetera, hope
is incredibly hard to extinguish.
506
:And so if there's any way to help people
like that have even a little bit of hope,
507
:um, it might spur on some action, I think.
508
:That would be beautiful if people are...
509
:For me, that's what works
when I'm in that state of...
510
:So you are sometimes, yeah.
511
:I, uh, I go outside.
512
:Yeah.
513
:And I go outside and just do nothing
and just look at some, some natural
514
:flower, tree, even little flower
growing through the concrete.
515
:And in few minutes, just staring at that.
516
:There, it's, there's so much
strength to the life and, and the
517
:nature that kind of hope creeps in.
518
:And also taking action.
519
:This um, this brings me to
the conversation that we had.
520
:a long time ago about
eco anxiety, remember?
521
:I mean, it was you, Jen, and someone
else, but um, eco anxiety is a thing, and
522
:one of the solutions, because typically,
the kind of thinking that makes you
523
:surrender and believe that there's nothing
you can do to mitigate climate change,
524
:it's very much linked to eco anxiety.
525
:And so one of the solutions
is to take action.
526
:Go outside, and the other
thing is to take action.
527
:Is that when you don't do some, anything.
528
:You're just passive and you just,
you know, you just let things, you
529
:don't, you lose direction and that
increases, it feeds the anxiety.
530
:Yeah, I, I think this is, this is a very
beautiful way to, um, wrap up this, um,
531
:Circle.
532
:Well, that's, or I su Okay.
533
:I said rap, honest.
534
:I su Nell.
535
:It's not Snell at all, but I su Oh yeah.
536
:We, we should drop, we
should write it for us.
537
:We should drop an album
or a single or something.
538
:I think we're, we're getting there soon.
539
:Um, . But yeah.
540
:Happy to, happy to . But, but
I think it's a great, this is a
541
:great one to end with because.
542
:Um, I saw a reel on Instagram and the
person was saying that people can be
543
:extremely productive when they find
purpose, when you give them something
544
:to work towards and something to do.
545
:It's like if you pick a miserable person.
546
:And give the person a goal to achieve
something the person finds true and um
547
:Interesting to do you would be amazed
that they would crawl over glass just to
548
:get it done So I think it might apply a
little bit here Um when when the feeling
549
:of hopelessness or doomism sets in it's
probably okay Just like you said liki to
550
:Take an action and not just take action,
but consider thing and see that, well,
551
:maybe it's not that bad and look around
and ask questions like, what can I do?
552
:And what can I do now?
553
:And like Seth would usually
say, who's coming along with me?
554
:Can I bring someone along?
555
:Can I be committed to something
that sort of makes a change?
556
:And when we're committed to things.
557
:It can grow it can grow because
whatever we pay attention to actually
558
:grows so It starts like that.
559
:I was I was in the carbon almanac
one day Not knowing very much about
560
:climate change And I've moved from
that to delivering keynote sessions
561
:and workshops or well sessions, let's
just put it, about climate change.
562
:And podcasting about it about every
week and taking my plate to the
563
:eatery each time I go to buy food
because I don't want plastics.
564
:They've laughed at me so much.
565
:When they see me now, they're
like, Oh, that's the guy that
566
:always comes with his plate.
567
:One time I took my plate to
the restaurant and the security
568
:wouldn't let me in with it.
569
:They're like, what are you carrying, sir?
570
:I'm like, well, that's my plate
and I'm about to buy food.
571
:And the manager was looking from across
the counter and then she walked to the
572
:door and was like, Stop harassing my
customer and then she picked me from the
573
:door and and the guy never stopped me ever
again And each time they ask me what is
574
:why is it so like it's it's cheap to buy
the plastic What why are you bringing your
575
:plates and costing yourself extra money?
576
:It's an opportunity to tell them and
I always do that What I start with is
577
:that do you know that plastic steaks?
578
:About 1, 000, 000 years to decay or
to decompose, and there's a shock
579
:on their face like, what really?
580
:I'm like, well, yeah, that spoon you're
holding, if it finds itself in the
581
:ground, will be there until your great,
great, great, great, great grandchild
582
:is born and maybe even be there longer.
583
:It's like, and it's hurting, it's
hurting the ecosystem is hurting the
584
:ground is hurting the environment.
585
:And, you know, they just.
586
:Sort of act like, Oh, well,
what do you want to buy?
587
:Like, well, that's what I want to buy.
588
:But eventually they're sort of learning
as well, which is the most fun part of it.
589
:Start like, start like teaching
them and getting them to see that.
590
:Um, there's a lady that asked me one
time and then I think the other person
591
:was right beside her and then rather
than me saying it, she was the one
592
:saying, explaining to her colleague
because she has, she had heard it from
593
:me more and like over and over again.
594
:And she was just, she literally
said it in my words and the other
595
:person was, uh, I was like, oh, okay.
596
:And so it's sort of like that, the change
we make when we, it wouldn't start at
597
:once, but like committing to something.
598
:Progressively can be very, very
helpful and help inspire hope as well.
599
:It's, it's not too late
and you're making a ruckus.
600
:Yeah.
601
:Thanks for listening.
602
:That was fun.
603
:Thanks.
604
:That was wonderful.
