Episode 161

[FOCUS] Individual Actions and Leadership in the Fight Against Climate Change With Josh Spodek

Episode Summary: Today, we’re presenting the final part of our conversation recorded in 2022 with Josh Spodek, a leader in environmental advocacy and personal change who got a segment in the Daily Show, because he went off grid living in Manhattan. 

You can listen to the previous episode to find out about the story. 

As we conclude this series, Joshua takes us through his innovative approaches to addressing climate change and how he emphasizes the power of individual actions and leadership in the fight against global environmental issues. 

This episode was originally aired in 2022. Follow the link to listen to the full episode

Watch Josh Spodek in the Daily Show

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

----- 

Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Brian D Tormey and Olabanji Stephen

Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US.

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria, he’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work. 

----- 

The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Transcript
Speaker:

Hello again.

2

:

Um, leaky.

3

:

And you're listening to common sessions.

4

:

Today, we're presenting the final

part of our conversation that we

5

:

recorded in 2022 with Josh Spodek.

6

:

Uh, letter in environmental

application and personal change.

7

:

Who got a segment into daily show because

he went upgrade living in Manhattan.

8

:

You can listen to the

previous episode to find out.

9

:

All about the story of

him living off-grid.

10

:

As we concluded his series.

11

:

Josh take us through his innovative

approaches to addressing climate

12

:

change and how he emphasizes the power.

13

:

Of individual actions and

leadership in the fight against.

14

:

Global environmental

issues and climate change.

15

:

I think this is beautiful and,

and we're, we're, that's what

16

:

conversations are all about is figuring

out and finding out where they go.

17

:

You know, I think a lot of what you're

talking about in this example of this

18

:

executives and sort of his resistance,

maybe having conversations about how to

19

:

think about things, but then you sort

of like maybe without his awareness

20

:

leading him down, this pathway speaks

a little bit to, I think something

21

:

that seems to underlie so much of.

22

:

Your writing and your leadership is, is

behavior change and pattern changing.

23

:

You know, even the term, you know,

this sustainable life, like it's about.

24

:

Changing those patterns and, and

you recently had a fabulous podcast

25

:

interview with, with Holly Whitaker.

26

:

The, the author of a book quit, like a

woman that explores her pathway to forego

27

:

alcohol or rather live a sober lifestyle.

28

:

And, and in that interview, you,

you dig a lot into the correlation

29

:

between alcohol addiction.

30

:

And our addiction to fossil fuels, or

maybe rather our addiction to the belief

31

:

that the things we can derive from

fossil fuels faster, this cheaper, that,

32

:

easier, that is itself an addiction,

an addiction to that feeling and belief

33

:

that that life will be easier or better.

34

:

Can you share some thoughts on like this

idea of behavior change and, and that

35

:

mindset change and, and the correlation

over to other kinds of addiction?

36

:

where when we step back, you know,

Holly refers to alcohol as sort

37

:

of like our modern day cigarette.

38

:

Right.

39

:

And can you step back and help us

think about our patterns and behaviors

40

:

as, as in our lives and how those are

themselves, addictions and how we might

41

:

consider changing those behaviors?

42

:

Yeah.

43

:

There's lots of definitions of,

of addiction and I don't claim

44

:

to be an addiction specialist.

45

:

A lot of it is that it's something around

choosing something that, you know, has

46

:

long term, uh, adverse effects for the

short term reward, and maybe some attempt

47

:

to try to stop, an inability to stop.

48

:

A lot of people connect them

with chemicals like drugs and

49

:

alcohol and, and nicotine.

50

:

The, the specialists recognize things

like gambling and some we'll say

51

:

video game addiction and social media.

52

:

Different experts will qualify

these things as, as addictions as.

53

:

And when you're addicted, you know, you

make these choices that you wouldn't

54

:

otherwise, and it's very difficult to

get out someone who's addicted heroin.

55

:

If you suggest to them that

you'll, you'll enjoy life more.

56

:

Earning an honest living, a sleeping

regularly exercise, eating healthy,

57

:

they're gonna compare that to the

jolt of pleasure that they get.

58

:

That works every.

59

:

and they're gonna look at the

withdrawal and say, no way am I gonna

60

:

do that, that that sounds square

and I don't wanna live that way.

61

:

This is, this is a better life now.

62

:

Somewhere deep inside, maybe they feel

otherwise, but it's very difficult to, I

63

:

mean, if a, if the person who's addicted

has not themselves said, I'm addicted and

64

:

I want to change, the big thing is to get

them to where they say that themselves.

65

:

So I wanted to talk to people.

66

:

Are experts in addiction.

67

:

And in Holly's case, she drank a

lot of alcohol and then stopped.

68

:

And then her book I highly

recommend because whether you've

69

:

been addicted to alcohol or not, so

much of what she says rings true.

70

:

And so much of her attitude is

so, like she talks about how

71

:

alcohol was such a positive thing

in her life until it wasn't.

72

:

Her, how do I put it?

73

:

Outrage at the world, at a system

around us, which says, I mean, it's

74

:

normalized and made even adorable.

75

:

Like you, have you ever seen like

the shirts that say like, mommy's

76

:

drink champagne or Chardonnay because

babies cry or they have these cute

77

:

little phrases and stuff and she was

seeing like how much society condones

78

:

this and even their attempts to, to

hold things back, drink responsib.

79

:

The first word is drink responsibly.

80

:

The arb modifies it.

81

:

They're still saying drink . That's

the way of like, reducing

82

:

drinking is to say drink.

83

:

And our world is like that.

84

:

And she goes through and learn.

85

:

I mean, she eventually learned

about how alcohol, what it does to

86

:

the, to the body and what it does

to a culture and things like that.

87

:

And, and, and, and the

book is really engaging.

88

:

So I really wanted to have her on.

89

:

She, she's as engaging in conversation.

90

:

So how do.

91

:

If we're addicted to things that fossil

fuels bring, I mean most people, if

92

:

I propose to them a voting packaged

food, they, I mean, I used to have

93

:

ice cream in my freezer always.

94

:

I always had ice cream in the freezer, and

I always had snis of a handover, pretzels

95

:

in my cupboard because I loved them, and

I couldn't think of going without them.

96

:

And I always thought, I'm

eating too much of this stuff.

97

:

But when I finished the package, I'd get.

98

:

Mm.

99

:

Now those things are disgusting to me.

100

:

Like I, there's not enough money

in the world to get me, to get

101

:

me to eat a spoon of ice cream.

102

:

It's just not, not gonna happen.

103

:

Mm.

104

:

I've just, it's, I mean, it really, it

goes to the disgusted center of my brain.

105

:

And she had that too.

106

:

And, but I gotta tell a

story that's not about Holly.

107

:

Definitely read a book if you're trying to

see how you can get around to change your

108

:

behavior to where it's something where you

feel like, I know this is hurting others.

109

:

I know it's hurting myself,

but I can't stop myself when we

110

:

do something we know is wrong.

111

:

We convince ourselves why it's

not, and we suppress the part

112

:

of us that says otherwise.

113

:

But I gotta tell the story

about one time I was walking.

114

:

Washington Square Park, which

is around the corner from me.

115

:

It's sort of my backyard and

I pick up litter every day.

116

:

And since the pandemic, when the

heroin, meth, fentanyl, and crack

117

:

addicts started really populating the

northwest corner of Washington Square

118

:

Park, which is supposed to be, you know,

a really desirable area in the world,

119

:

but I mean, they were encampments of,

of people and, and fentanyl and meth.

120

:

People who use this stuff

just throw garbage every.

121

:

So I told myself, I'm not

gonna retreat from this.

122

:

I go pick up at least three pieces

of litter in Washington Square Park

123

:

just to make sure I'm there and the

people see me caring and acting.

124

:

And so I'm going pick up litter.

125

:

And this one particular day I'm

walking through and there's not

126

:

even a lot of people around, but

when I go pick up something, this

127

:

guy sees me and he says, thank you.

128

:

And he's a construction worker.

129

:

He is wearing one of those bright

yellow vests, somehow off duty.

130

:

He's holding onto the helmet.

131

:

And I don't know what he's doing there,

but we get to talking and I start talking

132

:

to him about why I pick the stuff up and

I say, you know, it's nice to pick up

133

:

the litter, but what it really does is it

helps reinforce not to buy packaged food.

134

:

I tell him about how, you know, at

that point I'm maybe two, two and a

135

:

half years into one load of garbage.

136

:

And he's like, wow, that's amazing.

137

:

And I also say how one of the outcomes

of this is that by eating fresh fruit

138

:

all the time, I can eat as much as I

can stuff down my throat because it's.

139

:

Low caloric density.

140

:

You know, you can't eat that much.

141

:

I mean, you can't get fat eating spinach.

142

:

So, and he says, well, I wish

I could do that, but I can't.

143

:

And he indicates that he's

obese and he points to his belly

144

:

and he is like, I can't do it.

145

:

There's nothing I, you

know, I'm too far gone.

146

:

I'd like to be able to

eat that way, but I can't.

147

:

So I point him over there at the

meth and fentanyl people, and they're

148

:

out of earshot, but we can see them.

149

:

And I say, you know, those people over.

150

:

Are addicted to fentanyl and

meth and things like that.

151

:

And he goes, yeah, I know.

152

:

And I say, I talk to them and

they tell me that they can't stop

153

:

what they're doing, can they?

154

:

And he looks at me and you can

see the gears start turning and

155

:

he says, you're right, I can stop.

156

:

I didn't tell him he could stop.

157

:

I asked him if they could, and they, you

know, I think he knows that they can.

158

:

And I think he knew that he was

using the same excuses that they.

159

:

And then a funny thing happened.

160

:

He gets out some money from his

pocket and he's like, take this.

161

:

And he hands me a $20 bill.

162

:

And I'm like, no, what I,

what are you talking about?

163

:

He goes, take this.

164

:

I'm like, no, I'm not

gonna take your money.

165

:

I don't need it.

166

:

And he goes, it will be more

valuable to me, the lesson if

167

:

you take this money from me.

168

:

I'm like, if this benefits you,

fine, I'll take it and I'll

169

:

give it to some worthy cause.

170

:

And he goes, no, no, spend it on yourself.

171

:

Enjoy it.

172

:

So now the intellectual awareness

that you can stop is different than

173

:

being able to stop being able to stop.

174

:

And the, you know, people go,

they stop and then they, they,

175

:

they're in recovery and then they,

they, what's the, what's the word?

176

:

They not remission when

they go back again.

177

:

And, you know, it, it's a cycle.

178

:

It's, it's difficult, it's challenging.

179

:

It helps a lot to have role models.

180

:

It helps a lot to have support, you

know, giving people facts, telling a

181

:

smoker, here's what happens to your lung.

182

:

Or a drinker, here's what

happened to your liver.

183

:

It's not nearly as effective as

being a role model, showing support,

184

:

non-judgemental support, compassion,

but really having gone through

185

:

it yourself is a really big aid.

186

:

Giving people facts and numbers

not gonna help, not gonna hurt.

187

:

I mean, that helps after they've changed,

but getting to where they choose to.

188

:

That's a much different facts

and numbers don't help that.

189

:

I mean, they're not gonna hurt.

190

:

And sometimes there's someone who's

ready to hear it, and that fact might

191

:

be just at just the right time, but

much more about emotional support.

192

:

Listening, listening to understand,

going, you know, meeting them

193

:

where they are, things like that.

194

:

And having done it yourself, that's,

I mean, that's why I'm unplugging.

195

:

Not for, yes, for the individual thing.

196

:

Yes.

197

:

Because I don't wanna pollute

other people, other people's

198

:

air and water and, and world.

199

:

And if you look at, I mean, ugh,

it's heartbreaking to see the

200

:

pictures of se Ghana where, where

a lot of e-waste goes, or just the

201

:

mountains of garbage in other places.

202

:

And people look at that and say, well,

they should have better sanitation.

203

:

I'm like, who's profiting from that?

204

:

That's, that's where I, you know,

I wanna go to the boardrooms of

205

:

the people who decide to extract.

206

:

And form the plastic and things like that.

207

:

Now, that's not to say, you know,

that's not the only thing to do.

208

:

We have to stop ourselves.

209

:

I certainly support Extinction

rebellion@threefifty.org for

210

:

protesting and things like that.

211

:

But something that I saw missing was

how do we lead the most influential

212

:

people with the biggest delta possible?

213

:

Yeah, we gotta do it ourselves first.

214

:

Gotta walk the walk, yeah.

215

:

And find the joy in it.

216

:

I mean, there, there's nothing in me that.

217

:

What a burden, what a chore.

218

:

I'm so deprived.

219

:

What a sacrifice.

220

:

I mean, except in the sense

of, of I've had a bunch of

221

:

religious people on the podcast.

222

:

I've had evangelicals, Trump supporters,

hardcore red state politicians, CEOs

223

:

of very polluting companies, and

there's, the reason I mentioned this

224

:

was in the, in the, certainly in

the evangelical community, the word

225

:

sacrifice is a very positive thing.

226

:

So I do sacrifice in that sense.

227

:

Or the Michael Jordan.

228

:

, like he's, he was the first one there and

last one to leave from every practice.

229

:

Was he sacrificing?

230

:

I think he really enjoyed it.

231

:

And so in that sense, I'm sacrificing if

there's a noble part of it or sacrifice.

232

:

If, if, if people who leave the party

early to go home and they have to feed

233

:

their dog or walk their dog or take care

of their kids, that's not sacrifice.

234

:

I mean, it is, but it isn't.

235

:

So in that sense, yes I am

because it's very reward.

236

:

But it's not, I'm not giving anything up.

237

:

In fact, I, I wish that I had started

earlier and had not bought into the social

238

:

cultural beliefs of what you do, doesn't

matter, and all those lies to support

239

:

here looks at the quote Abraham Lincoln.

240

:

Nothing is more damaging to you than to

do something that you believe is wrong.

241

:

That's where the, that's where,

that's where the, the, the.

242

:

Conflict interruption begins.

243

:

Yeah.

244

:

It's this, this theory of

cognitive dissonance where like

245

:

your actions and your beliefs

are, are in contrary alignment.

246

:

But then you start to as, as you talk

about in many of your writings and

247

:

things start to like just convince

yourself why the actions you did do

248

:

are actually the right ones after all.

249

:

And this idea of sort of like

explaining it to yourself afterwards,

250

:

that we all do, you know, that's one

of the powers of our brain is to.

251

:

Soothe that dissonance with,

with a new explanation, a new,

252

:

a new response afterwards.

253

:

Now there, there's this fabulous

book by Professor Brian, uh,

254

:

Wein, who digs into this concept.

255

:

The book was called Mindless Eating, and

he digs into this idea of choices made

256

:

during like moments of consciousness

where you're stepping and you're

257

:

sort of in your, what are my values?

258

:

What are my choices?

259

:

What am I thinking about,

what I'm choosing to?

260

:

And he focuses within the eating

construct on what can you do in

261

:

that moment of consciousness that

will have influential impact.

262

:

You know, when you're in all those

mindless moments, when you're just

263

:

sort of going through your routines and

just doing things, you know, you had a

264

:

great little thing about talking with

someone who you know, was like, well,

265

:

how do I give up these Keurig pods?

266

:

And you're like, just try it.

267

:

You know?

268

:

What, how would you take, what are,

what are some of your ideas that you

269

:

might share with our listeners about.

270

:

Actionable changes that they can make

and commit to in, you know, quote unquote

271

:

moments of consciousness when they're

stepping back and saying, okay, how

272

:

I wanna lead a more sustainable life.

273

:

What are things they can do in that

moment of consciousness that are

274

:

actionable, that can have a meaningful and

positive, positive, sustainable impact?

275

:

Well, I gotta, with the ke one,

I didn't say just, just try it.

276

:

What happened with her was, that

was a reporter who did a story on

277

:

me and after the story she came back

and said, I wanna do this stuff.

278

:

and what can I do?

279

:

And no, she didn't say what she could do.

280

:

She said, I don't really know what

I can do about my Keurig cups.

281

:

She had a Keurig machine at home.

282

:

Mm-hmm.

283

:

. And she was like, I don't know what to do.

284

:

And I said, well, I can't say exactly

what to do because I haven't solved that

285

:

problem because I don't drink coffee.

286

:

But I know the process is, you know,

go, I forget exactly what I said, but

287

:

something like, see if you can go without

for a week and here's what I think will.

288

:

Again, I can't say for sure.

289

:

I think one is it might be that you stop

drinking coffee and you just don't need

290

:

it anymore, in which case problem solved.

291

:

It may be that you find another

solution because people have been

292

:

making coffee for long before Keurig

machines were around, and you'll

293

:

figure out what other people have done.

294

:

And I don't know, maybe it'll be

something like some French press and

295

:

she says, oh, I have a French press.

296

:

Someone gave it to me as a gift.

297

:

It's in my closet.

298

:

Okay, so here's how not

to stop using Keurig.

299

:

Keurig, uh, single use disposable.

300

:

Keep using them.

301

:

Here's how to stop, stop . She

had the solution right there.

302

:

But as long as we pre, you know, if we

are ever gonna get a jet that can fly,

303

:

or an airplane that can fly across an

ocean carrying a bunch of people, you

304

:

know, I had the, the chief engineer

of an electro plane company on, and

305

:

it looks like it's never gonna happen.

306

:

If it's gonna happen, there's like

with, you know, maybe stopping

307

:

over in Greenland, but then you

have these huge constraints.

308

:

but it looks like it'll never happen.

309

:

But if it's ever gonna happen,

here's how not to get there.

310

:

Keep flying with jet fuel.

311

:

It's like the worst thing to do to, to

get off of jet fuel is to keep using jet

312

:

fuel and to keep supplying that system.

313

:

So to, in those moments of

consciousness, when we recognize even

314

:

someone who is heavily addicted to

some of the most addictive stuff.

315

:

So, you know, a heroin user might,

might think they might have a

316

:

moment of clarity where they

think, I really wanna stop this.

317

:

We.

318

:

I mean, in my case, it's this.

319

:

If you have that mindset shift,

you have to start a process of

320

:

continual improvement and expect

that it's gonna take a while.

321

:

I'm something like 10 years into

genuinely, authentically acting

322

:

on my values here, and I'm still,

I'm still taking, I'm still

323

:

filling up loads of garbage.

324

:

I haven't gotten to zero yet,

and it's, I'm, I'm gonna be

325

:

a long way off, but I hope.

326

:

The next person can see that

you can live in Manhattan and

327

:

unplug from the electric grid.

328

:

And even if you think you can't

make it past two days, you can

329

:

still make it into the six month

and who knows how much longer.

330

:

I hope the next people can take

maybe three years or one year to

331

:

do what I've done in all this time.

332

:

And I hope that, you know, one of

my biggest hopes is that people

333

:

will hear, you can unplug over

half the world lives in, in cities.

334

:

And most people, I would think would feel

like I did on May 21st before I started.

335

:

Can't be done.

336

:

How would I even begin?

337

:

What could be done if a lot of

people, or even if some people

338

:

think you can do that, I wanna try,

that's the beginning of a movement.

339

:

And you try and you fail and you try

and you fail and you try and you fail

340

:

and you try and you succeed and you

bring someone else along the next time.

341

:

But I think you have to start with

intrinsic internal motivation.

342

:

If it's extrinsic, oh, New York Times

says I'm supposed to avoid straws.

343

:

I don't think that's gonna.

344

:

It's gonna reinforce the feelings.

345

:

Like when I hear someone say,

here's one little thing you can

346

:

do for the environment, here's

10 little things you can do.

347

:

I'm like, why?

348

:

Say little.

349

:

Mm-hmm that implies

you don't wanna do it.

350

:

No one says drink less.

351

:

Driving Mondays no one says seatbelt.

352

:

Tuesdays you say, always drive if

you're gonna drive, drive sober.

353

:

Always that not easy way into it.

354

:

What I focus on is intrinsic motivation.

355

:

What are the passions?

356

:

When you think of moments of yourself

in the environment that really matter

357

:

on the beach, on the mountain, in

the forests with the pet at the

358

:

park, what are the emotions there?

359

:

Act on those emotions.

360

:

It may lead you to do

something really big.

361

:

People on my podcast have said,

I'm gonna go vegan right now.

362

:

People have said I'm not, I'm, I had

one executive retired and she said,

363

:

I'm not gonna buy clothes for a year.

364

:

Wow.

365

:

I talked to her a couple weeks into it

and she not only was not buying clothes,

366

:

she was getting rid of clothes that

were in her closet that she didn't wear.

367

:

And she was, this is even funny.

368

:

She was even going through her, seeing

the simplicity that brought to her

369

:

life, the improvement to her life

of getting rid of needless things.

370

:

She was going through her Rolodex or

whatever, you know, her computer Rolodex

371

:

thing, and she was getting rid of

contacts that weren't valuable to her.

372

:

Wow.

373

:

And so, You know, if you look on

my blog, you'll see, you'll see a

374

:

bunch of stuff on the Spock method.

375

:

If you just listen to episodes of my

podcast, that's, I really think the best.

376

:

The best way to start is to find

what's inside you that matters and act

377

:

on that applied to the environment.

378

:

That's not enough of a description

of Theo Method, I would say values

379

:

first and then acting on those values.

380

:

And so like people digging

into themselves to finding.

381

:

Like what are my values?

382

:

Right?

383

:

And a lot of what she said is

communicating to people that,

384

:

Hey, what are your values when

it comes to even the environment?

385

:

Like what are your values?

386

:

And, and when you do that, then what next?

387

:

What action are you going to take?

388

:

And, you know, just take that action.

389

:

So it's pretty amazing.

390

:

And I wanna clarify intrinsic

values, not extrinsics.

391

:

Cuz if it's just like, I don't know,

I wanna do nice things for the world.

392

:

That's not gonna do it, that, you

know, definitely act on those values.

393

:

But if for these, it has to be like in a

moment when you are, I mean, when you are

394

:

in the environment and it really changes

you, you know, maybe it was that one

395

:

time you were on the beach and the sun

just hit the clouds and just that way.

396

:

Or sometime you're on a mountain and

you climb it yourself or whatever.

397

:

Like how do you feel then

and there and those emotions?

398

:

Act on those emotions.

399

:

Most people, when I ask them what the

environment means to them, almost across

400

:

the board, their answer is what they

read about, about how the environment is

401

:

all falling apart and all this outrage.

402

:

And then they start getting into how

governments, corporations should change.

403

:

And it's all, you know, it's become

common that we show how much we care

404

:

by expressing more and more outrage.

405

:

That's not their experience with the

environment, that's their experience.

406

:

Reading the news or watching

videos actually in the environment.

407

:

It takes a while for people to get

there for a lot of people until they

408

:

do, and then it's, they open up and

it becomes really very meaningful.

409

:

But so it's not just to say, oh, I'm

so outraged, or I care about my kids.

410

:

Of course you care about your kids,

but that's separate from you care about

411

:

the environment before you had kids.

412

:

It really takes a lot of, how do I.

413

:

I mean experience to really walk

people through this, getting

414

:

them off of, how do I put it?

415

:

You know, the cocktail party

conversations where we show how much

416

:

we care by our outrage, but it's not

really, it's not, it's still focusing

417

:

on everyone else should change, but

I still, you know, but I shouldn't.

418

:

Yeah.

419

:

See if I ask someone, do

you feed your dog regularly?

420

:

Do you change your baby's diaper?

421

:

No one feels guilty if I ask them that,

and I say, do you take into account

422

:

how your pollution affects others?

423

:

People are like, oh, stop

making me feel guilty.

424

:

I'm like, I'm not.

425

:

If I ask you if you feed your

dog, to me it feels very similar.

426

:

Why would we care more about

our dogs than about people

427

:

just because they're far away?

428

:

Just because I feel like

I can't make a difference.

429

:

Of course, I can make a difference

about, about my personal actions.

430

:

So when we get to a point where

when someone asks, you know, are

431

:

you doing all you can, people feel

like, oh, I'd like to do more.

432

:

What more can I do?

433

:

What?

434

:

What more awesomeness can I

bring to my life by caring more?

435

:

Acting more about people live

and let live, do unto others

436

:

as you have them do unto you.

437

:

Leave it better than you found it.

438

:

If I give.

439

:

I mean, for me, it doesn't

feel like giving up anymore.

440

:

But if I give up flying and in return

I get to live by the value of do

441

:

unto others as you would have them

do unto you that trade is worth it.

442

:

Because the contrary is doing

what Lincoln saw was the worst

443

:

thing you can do to yourself.

444

:

And, and when you do it, the glory

that comes with it, the, the, the

445

:

feeling of oneness, of connection

of we're in this together.

446

:

That's what being human means.

447

:

It is not.

448

:

I wanna go to Machu

Picchu, you can't stop me.

449

:

I'm just gonna go.

450

:

My mom lives on the other coast.

451

:

What else can I do?

452

:

I have to go see her.

453

:

That's a really hard problem.

454

:

That's really hard to solve, but the

only way we can do it is by facing it.

455

:

Speaking of, you know, like deep

seated change, but on big change,

456

:

you know, one of the things that

you've put forward is this idea.

457

:

A constitutional amendment to, you know,

here in the US to actually ban pollution.

458

:

And at one point during one of your

sessions on this, you, you say, if a

459

:

genie offered me the opportunity to just

immediately have this constitutional

460

:

amendment, which creates sort of a new

law of the land in place, but without

461

:

popular support, I wouldn't wish for that.

462

:

And it, it feels like some of what you're

saying here comes back to that concept of.

463

:

It has to come from a place of of deep

rooted internal intrinsic, and you're

464

:

almost speaking about the population

itself as needing to like come to that

465

:

place of perspective and our convers

conversation and our perspective

466

:

around things to shift so that it's

not weird and odd and problematic

467

:

that a father and a daughter are

picking up a piece of litter in a.

468

:

And that people don't react.

469

:

What are you doing?

470

:

That's weird.

471

:

That's crazy.

472

:

But in fact, that's normal and celebrated

and commonplace and that big shift.

473

:

While we're on the topic of, of, of

the constitutional amendment construct,

474

:

you know, for, for our United States

listeners, any words to share on that?

475

:

I mean, it, it's some really compell.

476

:

Thought work that you've put

into this, this construct.

477

:

I am not interested in any action.

478

:

That is not a fair democratic process.

479

:

And this really hit me.

480

:

I was up at Columbia University's, this is

where I got my PhD, this Lamont Doherty is

481

:

one of the big research centers there, and

I was up there and, and giving a talk and

482

:

I was talking, one of the scientists and

the scientists are saying, we gotta get

483

:

to these senators and tell them this stuff

so that they can vote, blah, blah, blah,

484

:

you know, to, to vote on some legislation.

485

:

I'm like, You gotta get popular support

If you're trying to sneak around the

486

:

public and say, look, we know what's

right and we're gonna tell the senators

487

:

what's right and they're gonna act

despite the fact, despite if everyone's

488

:

going around buying SUVs, the senators

are going to go with the public.

489

:

And if you try to go around that,

well, you know, the oil company is

490

:

a lot better at it than you are.

491

:

Everything has to come.

492

:

And if you try to pass a law that,

that the public, that the public

493

:

doesn't want, like say prohibition,

you, the public's gonna go against it.

494

:

That's gonna work against you.

495

:

The, so if you want to have, if we want

to pass legislation for a carbon tax or

496

:

pollution tax or various things like that,

but we don't first get popular support

497

:

and, and how can you get popular support

if you yourself are funding through

498

:

buying the plane tickets and buying

the plastic bottles and all that stuff?

499

:

If you're funding the pollution,

you are funding the opposition

500

:

. So that's not gonna work.

501

:

You, we have to change ourselves first.

502

:

That's why, that's why I describe

government acting is the finish line of a.

503

:

Which itself is then the beginning of yet

another marathon, but at least that one

504

:

you're going downhill instead of uphill.

505

:

But the reading about Lincoln led me

to see, you know, I started learning

506

:

more about the passage of the 13th

Amendment, which ended slavery.

507

:

This is what the movie was about.

508

:

The morning.

509

:

They didn't know that it was gonna,

the movie Lincoln with Daniel Day

510

:

Lewis in an amazing acting role.

511

:

And they didn't know it was

gonna pass even the morning of.

512

:

It was a huge talk about what s

a bipartisan polar polarization.

513

:

It was hugely, the issue of

slavery was hugely divide.

514

:

There was a civil war.

515

:

Right?

516

:

This is as, as as Republican

versus Democrat as you can get.

517

:

Although switch back then, and I doubt

you would find any politician today who

518

:

would suggest repealing that amendment.

519

:

I mean, talk.

520

:

I mean a hundred percent agreement.

521

:

I, I'm sure there are a few people

who'd say, let's bring back slavery.

522

:

There are people like that, I guess,

but I've never come across one.

523

:

And you're right.

524

:

I doubt any politician.

525

:

No politician is gonna get

elected to office by saying,

526

:

let's repeal the 13th Amendment.

527

:

So one morning unexpectedly, I just

woke up and thought, oh, and I also

528

:

recognize, he described as I think the

King's solution, he realized that there

529

:

had been decades, centuries, of federal

legislation, judicial interpretation.

530

:

I mean, the Dred Scott decision

I was reading about, I, I

531

:

I learned about in school.

532

:

It said that Africans were never

supposed to be citizens of this country.

533

:

It's widely regarded as the worst

Supreme Court decision of all.

534

:

Mm-hmm.

535

:

. And, but that's what happens when

you don't have popular support.

536

:

Federal legislation, state

legislation, judicial interpretations.

537

:

Executive orders.

538

:

Even the Emancipation proclamation he

recognized would not endure past the war.

539

:

It was a wartime act.

540

:

I mean, it was stronger, but

it was like an executive order.

541

:

These things don't work when

the population is split, but a

542

:

constitutional amendment I view

as different than legislation.

543

:

The Constitution is what

constitutes America,

544

:

and legislation follows our values.

545

:

If we try to.

546

:

If we create legislation or create

technology first and hope that that

547

:

will change our values later, that

backfires the same technology in one set

548

:

of values will have a different outcome

than in a different set of values.

549

:

I mean, the cotton gin is, is like my big

example here, but Eli Whitney's cotton gin

550

:

allowed more output for the same labor.

551

:

That could mean less labor, it

could have mean less slavery.

552

:

But the people who are using

them didn't value less slavery.

553

:

They valued more profit, more power,

so they used it to get more power,

554

:

and it's regarded as one of the

major contributors to the Civil War.

555

:

The same technology could have gone

one way, but the values of the people

556

:

wielding it, they didn't value that.

557

:

They valued power and money.

558

:

So I don't want a

constitutional amendment.

559

:

Like if someone said you could just get a

constitutional amendment, then I know that

560

:

most people in this country, including

most environmentalists, would oppos.

561

:

They would, they would continue

doing what they were doing.

562

:

So step one is go to the people, start

with myself, start with ourselves.

563

:

And if, if I don't wanna do it, what am

I gonna, what, what, where am I gonna

564

:

get by passing a law that other people

shouldn't do it when I'm still doing it?

565

:

No one's gonna vote for that.

566

:

No senator's gonna vote for that.

567

:

No state is gonna ratify that.

568

:

Not when we're paying for the opposite.

569

:

So we've gotta change ourselves.

570

:

But in, in the long run, I'm divided

right now as to whether to present

571

:

it as, as a symbolic idea that,

that we could strive for or actually

572

:

to say, let's get that amendment.

573

:

Let's get to a place where our

culture says that amendment

574

:

makes total sense to me.

575

:

It does.

576

:

It's crazy for a lot of people to

think of a world where known pollutes.

577

:

And I've asked a lot of people, can

you imagine, and I you listening

578

:

to me right now, just not just you

guys, but everyone listening, can you

579

:

imagine a world where nobody pollutes?

580

:

Most people I say that ask cannot

imagine a world where nobody pollutes.

581

:

They can, I mean, if they can, it's

usually post apocalyptic after some

582

:

Mad Max outcome where we're living

out of the dirt, which is actually.

583

:

We did live without pollution up

until, you know, roughly speaking,

584

:

around 17, 1800, we used lead

pipes, which would pollute, but

585

:

by and large we didn't pollute.

586

:

And in that time we went from something

like a thousand individuals homo

587

:

sapiens, to just about 1,000,000,006

continents living above the Arctic

588

:

Circle in that time finding.

589

:

Anesthesia and septic systems

and systems of hygiene.

590

:

We got had the germ theory of disease.

591

:

We don't have to leave

any of that stuff up

592

:

and vaccines, so people think we have to

return to the stone age to not pollute.

593

:

That's that's a failure of imagination.

594

:

And that failure of imagination

is one of the biggest problems.

595

:

It may be our biggest problem if

you ask someone to pollute less.

596

:

When they believe that the end result of

polluting less, is it atopic hellscape or

597

:

return to the Stone Age where mothers are

dying on childbirth and 30 years old age

598

:

and no hospitals and everyone's dying.

599

:

If you get a cut, then you have to

amputate because a gang green antibiotics

600

:

existed long before pollution did.

601

:

But if that's the vision that someone

has, they'll be like, oh yeah, sure.

602

:

I'll go without straws for a little while.

603

:

Sure.

604

:

If that makes you happy.

605

:

That's where it ends.

606

:

Cuz I'm not gonna go

any farther than that.

607

:

I don't wanna give up.

608

:

I don't wanna have to live

in the mud and die at 30.

609

:

And that's unable to imagine the world had

actually lived, the world that brought us.

610

:

Buddha and Laa and Aristotle and

Shakespeare and Bach and Jesus.

611

:

Mohamed.

612

:

You guys got me going.

613

:

It's, I hope I don't sound too high horse.

614

:

It's really, there's a glory.

615

:

There's a fun and a freedom and, A

greater connection to family and,

616

:

and community that it, it's rousing.

617

:

I've never read a bunch of facts

that got me there and you know,

618

:

just avoiding packaged food and

then just going for a long time.

619

:

The joy of eating an

apple is really great.

620

:

I can't overstate it, and

that's what I'm sharing.

621

:

Thank you.

622

:

Thank you so much.

623

:

It's been a pleasure talking to you.

624

:

I feel very inspired and I'm sure

that Brian and leaky here are also

625

:

inspired by a lot of what you shared.

626

:

Was just wondering if there are any

last words that you'd like to leave

627

:

before we close out on this episode?

628

:

Well, I'm gonna riff on you

saying you were inspired.

629

:

One of the things that got my podcast

started was Seth himself being a guest

630

:

on my podcast and actually went up.

631

:

I gambled and I said,

I'll go to where you are.

632

:

And I took the train up, he met me at

the train station and he was coming from

633

:

the farmer's market carrying a whole

load of vegetable like these vegetables

634

:

and recorded together at his place.

635

:

And he's very infectious, you

know, of like, I wanna do that too.

636

:

And very inspirational in that way.

637

:

Also activating people.

638

:

And so I'm gonna see if I can activate

people listening to this on my podcast

639

:

and in my leadership consulting training.

640

:

I like to work with

very influential people.

641

:

Bring them on the podcast to act on the

environmental values so that others can

642

:

say, oh, someone that I know is doing it.

643

:

If people listen to me now know,

you know, CEOs, especially polluting

644

:

companies, elected officials, star

athletes, star singers, star actors,

645

:

people with large followings, and they

do not have to have experience or.

646

:

In environmental anything

or sustainability, anything.

647

:

Most of 'em don't.

648

:

Then I'd love to have them as guests

on the podcast, or if they're in

649

:

an organization and they're looking

themselves to change that organization,

650

:

they could use this mindset shift followed

by continual improvement themselves.

651

:

And I would like a coach, put

them in touch with me and I'd

652

:

love to have them as guests.

653

:

I'd love to work with them and

help them change so that they

654

:

feel the joy that I do and share.

655

:

And that intrinsic motivation and that

fun and freedom and joy and community and

656

:

purpose, and that that's what leads us.

657

:

Yeah, there's a sense of obligation, but

really coming from intrinsic internal

658

:

joy, I'd love to help them get there.

659

:

And so if they go to joshua

poddar.com in the upright corner

660

:

is to contact and connect with

me, and that's the best way to.

661

:

That's awesome.

662

:

That's awesome.

663

:

Thank you so much.

664

:

And I'm doing this inspired from Seth

cuz he's so much, I wanna do that too.

665

:

Like, oh, I wanna bring

my friends in on it.

666

:

He is an infectious personality

and that power can be powerful.

667

:

It's, it's that multiplier effect.

668

:

Yeah.

669

:

And, and isn't that what we need to get?

670

:

A lot of people started.

671

:

I think that's exactly what we need.

672

:

Thank you so much, Josh.

673

:

Again, I'm sure that everyone listening to

this has also been inspired and, and will

674

:

be inspired, you know, listening after on.

675

:

That's so great, and I feel like

we should do this again, right?

676

:

So I'm looking forward to another

conversation with you sometime.

677

:

Thank you so much for joining us on the

podcast today, and see you next time.

678

:

It's been wonderful for me.

679

:

I hope I didn't talk too much.

680

:

You've been listening to Carbon

Sessions, a podcast with carbon

681

:

conversations for every day with

everyone from everywhere in the world.

682

:

We'd love you to join the Carbon

sessions so you too can share your

683

:

perspectives from wherever you are.

684

:

This is a great way for our community

to learn from your ideas and

685

:

experiences, connect and take action.

686

:

If you want to add your voice to

the conversation, go to the carbon

687

:

almanac.org/podcast and sign up

to be part of a future episode.

688

:

This podcast is also part of

the Carbon Almanac Network.

689

:

For more information to sign up for the

emails, to join the movement, and to

690

:

order your copy of the Carbon Alman.

691

:

Go to the carbon almanac.org.

692

:

Be sure to subscribe and join

us here again, as together

693

:

we can change the world.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for CarbonSessions
CarbonSessions
Carbon Conversations for every day, with everyone, from everywhere in the world.

Listen for free

About your host

Profile picture for Carbon Almanac

Carbon Almanac

When it comes to the climate, we don’t need more marketing or anxiety. We need established facts and a plan for collective action.

The climate is the fundamental issue of our time, and now we face a critical decision. Whether to be optimistic or fatalistic, whether to profess skepticism or to take action. Yet it seems we can barely agree on what is really going on, let alone what needs to be done. We urgently need facts, not opinions. Insights, not statistics. And a shift from thinking about climate change as a “me” problem to a “we” problem.

The Carbon Almanac is a once-in-a-lifetime collaboration between hundreds of writers, researchers, thinkers, and illustrators that focuses on what we know, what has come before, and what might happen next. Drawing on over 1,000 data points, the book uses cartoons, quotes, illustrations, tables, histories, and articles to lay out carbon’s impact on our food system, ocean acidity, agriculture, energy, biodiversity, extreme weather events, the economy, human health, and best and worst-case scenarios. Visually engaging and built to share, The Carbon Almanac is the definitive source for facts and the basis for a global movement to fight climate change.

This isn’t what the oil companies, marketers, activists, or politicians want you to believe. This is what’s really happening, right now. Our planet is in trouble, and no one concerned group, corporation, country, or hemisphere can address this on its own. Self-interest only increases the problem. We are in this together. And it’s not too late to for concerted, collective action for change.