Greenwashing and Greenhushing

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Hi, I'm Christina.

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I'm from Prague.

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Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

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Hi, I'm Oladunji, and I'm from Nigeria.

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Hello, I'm Liki, and I live in Paris.

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Hi, I'm Brian, and I'm from New York.

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Welcome to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with

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Hi, it's Fleeky.

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Hi, this is Christina.

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Hi, this is Jen.

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Hi, this is Olabanji and today we

are talking about greenwashing.

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And we've talked about greenwashing

on this podcast in the past,

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but today we're specifically.

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Looking into what makes greenwashing

bad, what makes greenwashing terrible.

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Um, and so we should perhaps start with a

refresher and talk about what greenwashing

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is and then we'll move forward.

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So, um, who wants to go first?

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What, what's greenwashing?

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I think it's, I think it's, um, Calling

something green or, um, good for the

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environment or, um, you know, fresh

or using some kinds of words that

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make it seem like it's good for the

environment, but in fact are just words.

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Yeah, I think it's basically a

marketing tactic to mislead the

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customers to believe that it's good

for certain cause, for the environment,

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for the water or for whatever.

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It's just a pure marketing tactic, right?

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Yeah.

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And, so it's like business, businesses

and companies are looking for how

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to appeal to their audiences and.

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These days, one of the cool things

to do or to be or to associate with

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or to identify with is to be, uh,

sustainability, to be interested

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in sustainability, because why not?

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And so companies would rather, but, but

why is it bad to, to do greenwashing?

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That sounds like a

stupid question, but why?

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Yeah.

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I think for me, it'll be that.

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Why fake something when you

can make it real, right?

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So what do you stand to gain by

saying that this is what you do

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to help the planet when you do

not have an intention to do it?

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It's like, well, it's not really fake

it till you make it, but why have,

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why have, um, hypothetical or imagined

impact when you can have a real one?

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And one of the bad things, about that

is that when you say that this is

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what you're doing, we can take your

word for it, but taking your word

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for it is that we trust you to do it.

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We trust that you are implementing your

strategies, what your sustainability

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goals are, and all that plenty of

stuff that you're talking about.

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Um, and so we're, we're, we believe

that your impact is reducing

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the impact of climate change.

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We believe that the work that you're

doing is reducing the impact of

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climate change when in fact it is not.

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So We should probably be doing more work

will be better off knowing that you're

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not doing anything and so we know where

to focus our efforts on and we know

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whether we should continue to convince

you or to, you know, talk to you about

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it or to, you know, do whatever it is

to get you on the good side of, you

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know, doing real work rather than, um,

rather than thinking that you're already

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doing it when you clearly are not.

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So, yeah, but I also think

that it brings, it's Yeah.

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It's a breach of trust in the, you

know, in the effort and it will

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undermine the action of those who

are really doing it, who are really

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taking care of the environment, are

really fighting for special codes.

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Because if you're doing something , you

pretend that you're doing something,

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but you're not actually doing, and

when your customers or your audience

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realize that you're not really doing it.

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It, um, it undermines the effort of

the others that are really doing it.

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Like, I think I should give an

example, but, um, I don't know,

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there are millions of examples.

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Um, it's so hard when you need

to look for example, but, um, for

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example, when, um, I have a quick one.

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Yeah, please.

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Thank you.

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Um, in the grocery store, sometimes

looking at shampoo or conditioner,

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stuff like that, this is a little one.

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Um, some of them have switched

over to green bottles or bottles

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that have plants pictured on them.

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But you read the ingredients and

they're still full of parabens and

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phthalates and whatever bad stuff.

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Yeah.

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Um, so, you know, it looks like

an attractive, natural looking

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bottle, um, but it actually isn't.

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Um, you know, good, good for the

earth or they have names on them,

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like, you know, earth, whatever.

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Um, but it's not real when you read,

when you dig into it a little bit more.

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Yeah.

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So , normally you should be, there

are visual cues that , are supposed

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to help you find the right product.

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But if some brands using these

cues that are not really represent

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what they're supposed to represent.

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That's, um, those who are really doing

it, uh, the efforts are undermined.

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Undermined.

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Yeah.

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I think one of the really crazy things

about greenwashing as well is that

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it can create a sense of complacency.

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So if I am interested in buying

only things like sustainable

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products, I would believe that I'm

doing something for the planet.

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So...

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Like the shampoo example, if I go ahead

and buy shampoo that has, you know, it's

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like, well, eco friendly and I basically

go shop for everything that's eco

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friendly, get home the sense of pride that

at least I'm trying, making an effort,

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especially if I'm not entirely the going

all out, you know, stopping climate change

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kind of person, it's just the little

efforts that I'm making and I feel like,

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well, that's something that I'm doing.

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Meanwhile, The products that I'm buying

are basically just eco friendly as a

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marketing tactic and not the real thing.

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And so the choice is harder, right?

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It distracts me from seeing actual

eco friendly products sometimes.

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And so.

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You know, that, that's another

thing as well, I think, is bad.

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And I think it's used in, in a lot of

different industries, you know, we're

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talking about product we can buy off the

shelf in the supermarkets, uh, but it's

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also in almost every industry sector,

like, okay, airplanes, that's, that's,

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um, that's a very big one because, um, I

don't know if you have bought an airline

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ticket recently, up until last year,

you can offset your trip and, you know,

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when you offset your flight, you have

this illusion of, okay, so therefore all

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my carbon emission will be compensated.

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And um, yeah, and um, I think this

is greenwashing and actually in

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France, some companies in France and

in Europe, um, there are some big

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airlines that have been sued because

they have been using this tactic.

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and so The other problem I think of

greenwashing is that it maintains them,

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you know, this um, this sense of it upset.

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Well, actually, the thing that's

really upset, it's your own

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guilt of doing the thing that

is not good for the environment.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's, um, psychological

dishonesty, isn't it?

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Yes.

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. Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's breaking trust.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Breaking trust in the companies.

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But now I think one thing people should

know about that you can look up on, uh,

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internet and they have greenwashing 11

recent standout examples and, uh, also

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they have other, uh, each year I think

they specifically focus on certain

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big companies that do the greenwashing

Say something that it's not true.

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And also one more thing.

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I was thinking about the colors

and shapes that being organic or

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Eco friendly there are certain

labels and Here's the same labels.

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It just looks like that.

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So from the distance you kind

of see the same shape Yeah.

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So, buyer be aware.

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It's, it's, um, it's interesting.

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One, one other thing, and there's a

thing called green hushing as well.

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What is green hushing?

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Um, I don't know if you've

heard about green hushing.

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No, tell me.

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No.

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What is green hushing?

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So, green hushing.

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What is that?

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Yeah.

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So, green hushing is when the

companies that are actually doing

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work are not talking about it.

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Because the fear.

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It might be perceived as greenwashing.

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And so, yeah, Green Ocean

is just a simple phenomenon.

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Companies that, that have legitimate

positive climate impact and green

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initiatives are holding back to speak up

about them because they are worried that

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their initiatives or their actions will

be labeled as greenwashing, especially

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when they are sort of ambitious.

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And so that's, that's like Greenhawshin.

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I haven't heard that before.

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Is, is that for companies that like, are

they worried about the politics of it?

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Or about turning off people who aren't,

are against environmental causes?

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Or what would the reason for that be?

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Yeah, so I think the reason would be, uh,

yeah, so they are, they are afraid of um,

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financial losses, damage of reputation,

Um, sometimes legal action and because

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the moment you see that these are the

initiatives that you're carrying out,

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um, even, even though they are true, you

start to attract certain kinds of like

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agencies and eyes and maybe government

to, um, try to monitor and make sure

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that you're doing what you say you do.

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And so even though they are

having real impact, their heads

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down to talk about it because.

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Now, that's funny because they care

more about the impact than they

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care about the communication of it.

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Yeah, but, I don't know, is the

communication of it very important?

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Because it's, for me, you know, as

a company, as a business, you have

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to take care of the environment.

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And for me, it's something...

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Normal, you know, it's like me,

I'm trying to be a good person,

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but I'm not always trying.

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I'm not always telling people, Oh,

I'm trying to be a good person,

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you know, and I have values.

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So I don't know the green hushing thing.

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I understand it somehow, but I don't,

I don't really understand why it is a

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problem to, to, , I don't understand why

it's, it's bad to green hushing is bad.

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Um, I don't know as well.

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I learned about it recently.

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I was like, Oh wow, there's something,

there's something called green ocean.

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Um, and, and green ocean, I think

the simple definition of green

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ocean is the fear of green washing.

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And that's, that'll probably be the,

the simple way to think about it.

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So I don't want to.

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Oh Jennifer.

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So I mean, is there a problem you're

seeing as you have some of these

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conversations with mutual aid?

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Oh Sure.

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Yeah, center.

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This is good.

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I was involved with M.

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O.

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Jessica Marie.

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So did I meet.

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Yeah, we did.

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But off my head, I think the other

thing about greenwashing now, so back to

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greenwashing, would be that it hinders

real progress towards sustainability.

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I think that's another thing.

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Just my thoughts, I think it hinders the

progress towards sustainability because

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it's assumed impacts, not real impacts.

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And assumed impacts is an enemy of

real impacts because we feel like

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we're making an impact and we're not.

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And so we still get...

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We still get the, uh, hazards, well,

not hazards, but we still get the

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somewhat like disasters, the negative

events and occurrences that come from

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climate change, when we think that

we're doing something towards it,

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when in fact the people that say they

are doing something are really not.

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Yeah.

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So for example, if a huge company like

say huge oil company starts to talk about

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their climate, like the climate impact

or sustainability goals that they have

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for like five years, it would be like

a breath of fresh air to know that a

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company with that much, um, emission , Is

making some effort to collapse it to

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reduce it significantly and so that'll

come like a that'll come like a relief

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only if it's true, but if it's not

true, then We're back to square one.

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Honestly, do you believe that

an oil company can have real,

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um, sustainable initiatives?

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To be honest, I don't know.

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It's hard, but I don't know.

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I heard.

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And so there's, there's total, total

is a, is an oil company and they are

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here in Nigeria and I was at an event

and they were talking about their

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sustainability goals and all the stuff

that they are working on, like total

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clean energy using other forms of

gases and electricity and some of all

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that stuff and it sounded okay, just

listening to it, but I, the truth is,

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I don't know how possible it will be.

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, for an oil company, in particular,

to, Well, I'm quite skeptical,

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really, um, for two main reasons.

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The first reason is that if you, if

you know the kind of, um, you know,

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the type of economic model of these big

companies, the decision they make, they

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make today, , will be like an investment

decision for the next 30 or 50 years.

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So, It's, um, they cannot just like,

okay, well, we'll change everything and

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we'll, we'll become sustainable from,

because it has such a long, um, investment

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financial impact for, for the business.

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That's the first thing.

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And the second thing is

that, Hey, it's a business.

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They've been making

lots and lots of money.

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Out of something that is exploitative,

that is, um, destructive,

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very bad for the environment.

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Do you really think that they

will stop, like, milking the cow?

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So, so that's, you know, for

those two reasons, I'm really,

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really, really skeptical.

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However, however, however, um,

the interesting thing about it

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is that, yes, it's a business.

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And.

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It sounds like, from what I've heard,

that some of these companies, um, are

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jumping on the solar energy bandwagon

because they see the profit in that

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over the profit in oil in the future.

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And so, whatever their motives

are, , it is possible, and it's

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happening, that some of these companies

are turning a lot of their focus

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toward building, uh, wind turbines.

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And producing electricity.

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Um, you know, and, and are heading in

that direction and, and it might not be

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an altruistic, you know, uh, reason, but

it might be because of self preservation

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and it might be, uh, jobs and it might

be, it will definitely is money, right?

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So Thank you.

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Um, you know, unlike maybe the tobacco

industry that just doubled down and

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stayed put and continued to produce and

continues to produce stuff that's, you

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know, everybody knows it's killing people.

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Um, perhaps they've decided, well, maybe

we should see what else is out there.

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Yeah.

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And hitch our wagon to that

star and move in that direction

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because it's going there anyway.

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Right?

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It's going there anyway.

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Yes, but you know, for, I think we, that,

you know, for the, these energy companies,

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we need, we really need to look into

details and see what's the proportion of,

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of, um, of how the, the, the energy they

produce from the solar or wind, , sources.

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I strongly believe that they have

invested so much in getting the, you

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know, the, the extraction that they

will stop extracting after they've,

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they've extracted the last bit, the last.

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The last drop of oil from everywhere

that we have on this planet.

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Yeah, and that's just human psychology.

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That's just that's just character

basically Because because why not right?

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Why not?

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Why would I not get the highest

return on my investment?

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um If you've you've got to show me a

better way or more If if they don't do

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it, it will not it's hard to believe so if

they don't do it It'll be hard to believe

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that The reason that they stopped doing

it is because they care about the planet.

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It will be, it will more likely

happen because they found a

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better, more profitable way.

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And they were, they found a

way to either manage the loss

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or not come to a loss at all.

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Or even make a bigger profits,

that'll be, that is, that is a more

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probable case than Hey, stop this.

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It's hurting the planet.

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Well, what do you mean?

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Stop this.

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I've, I've got like, what billions

of dollars in investments.

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Anytime you say stop this, that's

going to sound like gibberish.

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So, um, and that's, that's the innovation

part of sustainability, I guess.

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The fact that, that some, some of

some people like as humans have

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to think and not just present, and

this is the hard part, but not just

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present and the companies themselves

have to do like research and get

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deep into this and not just take it

from like a ideological standpoint,

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but from a forward technological,

innovative and profitable standpoint.

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Which is part of what, uh, Johannes was

saying on our last podcast about how he's

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been able to like, you know, it's tree

planting quite all right, but like set

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it up in a way that is investment worthy.

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: 00:20:44

And can scale.

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: 00:20:45

And so yeah, that's, that's a thing.

312

: 00:20:49

Yeah.

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: 00:20:51

It's, it seems like there are now for the

cars before we did not have much choice.

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: 00:20:57

We just had to buy gas.

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: 00:20:58

Yeah.

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: 00:20:59

That was it.

317

: 00:20:59

Yeah.

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: 00:21:00

But nowadays it's shifting

into, okay, now I have a choice.

319

: 00:21:05

Yeah.

320

: 00:21:05

I can make choice.

321

: 00:21:06

Yeah.

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: 00:21:07

And when in Czech Republic, I

have electricity from a company.

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: 00:21:13

And when I was signing up, they gave

me a choice, do you want to buy regular

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: 00:21:18

electricity or do you want to buy

electricity just from renewable, sources?

325

: 00:21:24

So I think also not only big companies,

but also the, that we are responsible what

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: 00:21:32

we are buying and what we're choosing.

327

: 00:21:34

If we have a choice, yeah,

so yeah, there's like a

328

: 00:21:37

controversial, uh, decree law.

329

: 00:21:40

I don't know what it is that came down

decision that came down in Canada this

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: 00:21:44

past week about, um, uh, discounting

heat pumps for only some people

331

: 00:21:51

in the country in Atlantic Canada.

332

: 00:21:54

And, uh, and everyone else

is like, but what about us?

333

: 00:21:58

So there's a lot going on about that

right now, but it's interesting because,

334

: 00:22:03

um, there's a lot of oil heating, um,

like, like oil has to be delivered to

335

: 00:22:10

oil burning heaters in Atlantic Canada.

336

: 00:22:13

It's very, very cold.

337

: 00:22:15

Um, in, uh, in the Eastern part of

the country, the, um, Um, maritimes

338

: 00:22:23

and, um, and so the idea is to get

people off of coal and oil burning,

339

: 00:22:31

uh, systems and to provide heat pumps.

340

: 00:22:35

Oh, nice.

341

: 00:22:36

Uh, but it's, it's cold all over the place

and people are saying, why just there?

342

: 00:22:40

Why not everywhere?

343

: 00:22:41

So there's a big hoopla going

on right now about that.

344

: 00:22:45

That makes sense.

345

: 00:22:45

But at least it's, it's in,

you know, incentivizing people

346

: 00:22:49

to switch from some of these.

347

: 00:22:54

Yeah, but as you rightly pointed

out, Christina, you say that we

348

: 00:22:59

have the choice, um, but there's

so much greenwashing out there.

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: 00:23:04

So how do we as citizen, as buyer,

you know, make the right choice

350

: 00:23:10

because there's so much greenwashing.

351

: 00:23:12

how do we know that it's the right choice?

352

: 00:23:14

I think it's important

to look into the sources.

353

: 00:23:18

I think it's the same as with the food.

354

: 00:23:21

that we do have a choice

and we do have information.

355

: 00:23:26

It's not going to be ready in the store

or it's not going to be on the news, but

356

: 00:23:32

it is going to be on the internet and

we can find names and addresses and all

357

: 00:23:42

these big companies, they have to report

to the government because of the taxes.

358

: 00:23:47

So I think it just takes a little bit

of digging, but There has to be reports,

359

: 00:23:54

even we have people travel all over

the world and just take time to check

360

: 00:24:02

out maybe one, uh, uh, cocoa growth

or a company where they make t shirts

361

: 00:24:10

in India or, uh, make, uh, dyes or,

uh, or when they say, yeah, we have

362

: 00:24:17

electricity from renewable There is a,

they have to report all these things.

363

: 00:24:25

So I think just take time a little bit and

maybe when you travel and check it out.

364

: 00:24:32

I also, I also think that we have

a choice to a certain extent,

365

: 00:24:36

depends on your economic status.

366

: 00:24:39

It's.

367

: 00:24:40

You know, it's, it's a lot cheaper to buy

a 5 bottle of shampoo than a 12 bottle of

368

: 00:24:45

shampoo or a 10 t shirt than a 90 t shirt.

369

: 00:24:51

And so, um, it's, we have a

choice to an extent, um, and I

370

: 00:24:57

think we always have a choice.

371

: 00:24:59

But sometimes the education has

to come first and and learning

372

: 00:25:03

about it before you can say well,

okay I need one shirt this year.

373

: 00:25:08

I don't need five So I'll spend more

on one and make it last then buy

374

: 00:25:15

You know the shirt at the local big

box store or the online place um You

375

: 00:25:22

know, I think, I think education has

to go hand in hand with that too.

376

: 00:25:26

Yeah, absolutely.

377

: 00:25:27

I think that, you know, education will

enable us citizen buyers to scratch

378

: 00:25:33

beyond the surface because there's

also, that's something I found out, I

379

: 00:25:37

realized that there's also greenwashing

from governments, politicians,

380

: 00:25:42

a lot actually of greenwashing.

381

: 00:25:45

And so for knowing for whom

to vote is very important.

382

: 00:25:50

And so it's requires us to.

383

: 00:25:53

be able to understand, and

it comes from education.

384

: 00:25:58

Yeah, that's true.

385

: 00:26:00

Yeah, and it's so much more fun to buy

things with a story, and when you know

386

: 00:26:06

who made it, it's, it's a pleasure.

387

: 00:26:10

It is, but it's not always possible,

because, um, yeah, I mean, um, I, living

388

: 00:26:17

here where I live now, it's easy, because

I have, there's , lots of shops, but

389

: 00:26:23

If you live in the suburb and you don't

have so much time and you have only,

390

: 00:26:30

you know, limited choices of where

you can shop, that's real difficult.

391

: 00:26:35

Maybe people from the neighborhood

could be together in suburbs and

392

: 00:26:39

create little gardens and uh, little

getting together and uh, fermenting

393

: 00:26:46

veggies and sewing and knitting.

394

: 00:26:50

We can start making community.

395

: 00:26:53

We don't have to go just

to huge supermarkets.

396

: 00:26:57

We can support each other.

397

: 00:26:59

Yeah, and I think it's worth mentioning to

organizations that might be greenwashing

398

: 00:27:05

currently or are looking to engage

intentionally or unintentionally, that

399

: 00:27:13

you risk your reputation, that's one,

and it's also could come with regulatory

400

: 00:27:20

and litigation risks so you can get sued.

401

: 00:27:23

Um, but besides that, you lose trust,

you might, you risk losing trust, the

402

: 00:27:30

trust that your customers have in you,

um, that's probably the biggest asset

403

: 00:27:35

that your business will ever have.

404

: 00:27:38

So it's not on the books, but

it's what makes the books exist.

405

: 00:27:44

So it'll be wise to sort of watch

that and not greenwash, right?

406

: 00:27:51

So rather than fake it.

407

: 00:27:53

You should probably just make it at once.

408

: 00:28:01

That's our hashtag quote for the day.

409

: 00:28:05

Yeah, don't fake it, just make it.

410

: 00:28:08

Excellent.

411

: 00:28:10

Yeah, make it, because there's

a legal framework to combat

412

: 00:28:13

greenwashing, and it's, it's becoming

tough in the EU, so be careful.

413

: 00:28:17

Yeah.

414

: 00:28:20

Yeah.

415

: 00:28:21

Yeah.

416

: 00:28:21

There you go, people.

417

: 00:28:22

Just don't fake it.

418

: 00:28:23

Just make it.

419

: 00:28:25

Yeah.

420

: 00:28:25

Yeah.

421

: 00:28:26

Yeah.

422

: 00:28:27

Yeah.

423

: 00:28:28

And that's probably a good

place to end this episode.

424

: 00:28:34

Yeah.

425

: 00:28:35

Um, yeah.

426

: 00:28:36

So, with that being said,

we'll see you next time.

427

: 00:28:41

Thanks everyone.

428

: 00:28:42

Yeah.

429

: 00:28:42

Get creative.

430

: 00:28:43

Thank you.

431

: 00:28:44

Thanks everyone.

432

: 00:28:45

Bye.

433

: 00:28:46

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434

: 00:28:50

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435

: 00:28:55

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436

: 00:28:59

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437

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438

: 00:29:05

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441

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446

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