Episode 80
Solar Geo Engineering to Solve Global Warming?
Episode Summary: Have you heard about solar geoengineering? It is a controversial approach to deflect the sun’s rays from reaching Earth.
The environmental protection agency of the UN has recently called for more research on solar geoengineering. Could this approach be the panacea to all our climate change problems? Can we stop caring about greenhouse gas emissions? What happens if we mess up with Mother Nature, once again? What have we learned?
In this wide-ranging conversation, our hosts Jenn, Olabanji, Leekei, Kristina and Brian share their thoughts and doubts about any attempts to geo-engineer Nature.
To find out more about solar geo-engineering and listen to expert perspectives, go to ‘The Current with Matt Galloway’ on CBA 7th March
For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac, visit thecarbonalmanac.org
Want to join in the conversation?
Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.
Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!
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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Olabanji Stephen Jenn Swanson, Leekei Tang, Kristina Horning and Brian Tormey
Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria, he’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.
From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and Community Connector, helping people help themselves.
Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France.
Kristina is working on design theory and using design process in everything. With a background in architecture, civil engineering and education, she loves research, play and co-creating. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US
Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US.
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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.
Transcript
Hi, I'm Ima.
Speaker:I live in Scotland.
Speaker:Hi, I'm Jen and I'm from Canada.
Speaker:Hi, I'm Ola Vanji and I'm from Nigeria.
Speaker:Hello, I'm Leaky and I live in Paris.
Speaker:Hey, I'm Rod.
Speaker:I'm from Peru.
Speaker:Welcome to Carbon Sessions.
Speaker:A podcast with carbon conversations for every day with everyone
Speaker:from everywhere in the world.
Speaker:In our conversations, we share ideas, perspectives, questions, and things we
Speaker:can actually do to make a difference.
Speaker:So don't be shy.
Speaker:Join our carbon sessions because it's not too late.
Speaker:Hi, I am leaky.
Speaker:Hi, I'm Christina.
Speaker:Hi, am Aji.
Speaker:Hi, I'm Jen and uh, and we're happy to be here today.
Speaker:And we're, we're gonna talk about something that I had never
Speaker:heard of before and I heard about it for the very first time.
Speaker:Maybe you've heard of it.
Speaker:I think it's kind of wild.
Speaker:And if I can get the name right, it is Solar Geothermal Engineering,
Speaker:which is not geothermal engineering.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:Geothermal engineering, which sounds pretty innocuous until I listen
Speaker:to what the definition of it was.
Speaker:And leaky.
Speaker:Is there another name for it?
Speaker:I think it's, no, it's, there's no geothermal.
Speaker:It's, it's geoengineering.
Speaker:It's so geoengineering.
Speaker:Oh, geoengineering.
Speaker:So there's no thermal, there's, there's thermal.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Because, um, geothermal is something else.
Speaker:, right?
Speaker:Is the heat?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:From the ground.
Speaker:So, okay.
Speaker:So this idea, in my understanding when I listen to this, uh, segment
Speaker:on our National Canadian radio station, um, is where you blow some.
Speaker:Particles up into the atmosphere that will block the rays of the sun in order to
Speaker:cool the earth temperature a little bit, and hopefully, uh, stop the, uh, what's
Speaker:happening right now with the planet.
Speaker:And, and nobody's ever done this before.
Speaker:The conversation that I heard was about it, it being a very slippery slope because
Speaker:we don't know what it would happen if we start messing with what the sun is up to.
Speaker:Um, Yeah.
Speaker:And it's not only just an idea, it's something that the UN environmental
Speaker:program has called for more research into.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So that's something, it sounds like a viable solution and it's a bit scary
Speaker:because wow, we've got solution to all our climate change problem . Well, one
Speaker:of the, the things that, um, one of the people said was they, Know what
Speaker:would happen because once you put the particles up there, you can't control 'em.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:And once they're up there, you don't know what it's gonna do to agriculture or.
Speaker:or all of that?
Speaker:Yeah, apparently.
Speaker:I mean, they, um, they haven't done a lot of research on that, but it's based on,
Speaker:uh, from my understanding, because, uh, I of course listened to the section of the
Speaker:radio program you shared , with us, and apparently, , it's something that they
Speaker:have observed from, um, what's it called?
Speaker:, volcanos.
Speaker:Eruptions, yeah.
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:Um, one thing that they have noticed is that one, there's
Speaker:um, there's a volcano eruptions.
Speaker:Um, , the temperature below this, the cloud of, um, you know, of the smoke.
Speaker:Um, it's lower than it what it should have been.
Speaker:And so based on that, based on this observation, the whole, you know,
Speaker:the whole concept of, um, solar engineering is based on this observation,
Speaker:this is my understanding, right?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:They said, they said the.
Speaker:, uh, that goes into the air after a significant volcanic eruption will,
Speaker:will, uh, deflect the rays of the sun.
Speaker:And so everything is cooler down below.
Speaker:So it's this, this idea that if they did a, basically a volcanic eruption higher
Speaker:up into the atmosphere, um, maybe they could cool things down, but there's a.
Speaker:Concern and trepidation around this idea too.
Speaker:, I, I'm just wondering, and I was trying to go back to the, to this section
Speaker:to listen to it, but I didn't have time, so maybe, , you have a better
Speaker:understanding than, than I have.
Speaker:Is that why once you've studied this process, you cannot go back?
Speaker:Or maybe you can, I don't know.
Speaker:. I think the idea was that they, they are not sure that they, you know, it, it
Speaker:would be like trying to catch everything after you've, after you throw it up there.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:There's no gravity, . It's gonna stay up there.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:And then how do you, how do you corral it if it's doing things
Speaker:that you don't want it to do?
Speaker:It would be like, , I don't know what to, what analogy to, uh, to give to
Speaker:it, but it's like collecting all of the ash that comes out of a volcano.
Speaker:It goes everywhere.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:. And so I think the concern is what if it, what if it does
Speaker:something we don't want it to do?
Speaker:What do you think of it all?
Speaker:Benji?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You have some questions?
Speaker:Oh, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting because like,
Speaker:it's like, well, we'd probably.
Speaker:A solution to climate change.
Speaker:This is something that we should definitely explore.
Speaker:Um, because if we can do that, we're, we're going to be saving a lot of lives,
Speaker:saving, you know, but it's like, well, we're disrupting this, the cycle of
Speaker:life sort of, because I mean, it's.
Speaker:The heat is supposed to come down and, you know, evaporate back up
Speaker:in some way and come back as rain.
Speaker:Um, which, you know, were thought in primary school.
Speaker:Um, but if we don't let it all come here, it's not, it's
Speaker:not going to disappear, is it?
Speaker:It's going to go somewhere.
Speaker:Um, so like how I, I, I think it's a great thing to explore.
Speaker:but off my head, it's like, well, we have to be able to predict
Speaker:as many possible outcomes and be able to plan for, for them.
Speaker:And if it's possible to do some tests in a way that, uh, you know mm-hmm.
Speaker:, that doesn't kill us all.
Speaker:, uh, But, but Christina has quite an interesting question here, and
Speaker:I, and I think it's, it's probably something to talk about as well.
Speaker:And she says, is climate change just about the temperature?
Speaker:Is it like, well, if we say temperature go away, does it mean that every
Speaker:climate change problem also goes away?
Speaker:Uh, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's a good question.
Speaker:I, I think, I think there was.
Speaker:And, and there's the other conversation around, you know, if we have a quick fix
Speaker:and I liken it to, you know, diet pills or something, if we have a quick fix,
Speaker:then do we all stop being responsible and taking responsibility for our
Speaker:actions Because they can spend 10, I think it was 10 billion to try this.
Speaker:Um, it was a lot of money.
Speaker:And a who's gonna pay for it?
Speaker:Is this gonna be a, a global?
Speaker:or you know who, who's gonna do this and how many times are they
Speaker:and who's gonna be in control?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:. So there's a lot of questions.
Speaker:And then what will it do to agriculture and different parts of the world?
Speaker:So anyway, it's interesting that they're studying and looking at this.
Speaker:I think it doesn't solve the climate change problem.
Speaker:It just tackle, it's just a patch to solve the temperature.
Speaker:To reduce the temperature.
Speaker:So it is it, and climate change is so much more complex than just the temperature.
Speaker:There's still cows, , and this is actually not the first time
Speaker:that, um, humans us, uh, we are trying to manipulate weather.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:, , and that's a bit scary, you know, because it's, uh, I don't know.
Speaker:It's, uh, I mean from people who , um, who believe in God, it's, you know, it's
Speaker:God's action to control the weather.
Speaker:But it, I mean, it's science.
Speaker:It's um, it's current.
Speaker:It's, it's, uh, it's physics, it's chemistry, but it's not
Speaker:just one simple action, I guess.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So it's, it's a little bit scary, I guess, to, to have disability, to control.
Speaker:Yeah, I guess, I mean, the, the other scary part is, uh, I don't know
Speaker:if, uh, many attempts to manipulate nature has turned out very well.
Speaker:In the history of humanity, , I don't, I don't think so.
Speaker:You don't
Speaker:I think you're right.
Speaker:Well, we've, we've been down this road before
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Brian.
Speaker:Brian, you wanna, I mean, I heard you saying something.
Speaker:You wanna go ? Yeah.
Speaker:Hi Brian.
Speaker:Welcome . Thank you.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Sorry I wasn't here right at the top, but excited to be here for
Speaker:what is a pretty interesting topic.
Speaker:I, you know, all aji.
Speaker:I, I think your comment is correct.
Speaker:You know, it's, and I'm gonna go to something leaky just said that for
Speaker:me, when I look at this like, It's the combination of, you know, some
Speaker:of the most complex things that we as humans to this day, struggle to fully
Speaker:understand Things like fluid dynamics, you know, very complex chemistry
Speaker:interactions where the chemistry reaction is happening, like at speeds and
Speaker:pressures that have great differentials.
Speaker:You know, like there's all these layers that happen in our atmosphere.
Speaker:Um, if for the moment where it seems like we're talking about the sort
Speaker:of, you know, The solar, the sort of like the, the aerosol in the, in
Speaker:the, in the atmos upper atmosphere approach to, to this possible thing.
Speaker:And within that, like if we can't, if we're not sure how the experiment's gonna
Speaker:go, and it's also an experiment, like if we all think back to our chemistry
Speaker:classes and our physics classes, right?
Speaker:Like, , what did the teacher always talk about first?
Speaker:Safety, right?
Speaker:Like you, you put on your safety bib, you put on your safety goggles, you
Speaker:have your glove, whatever the, the correct safety equipment to keep the
Speaker:experiment contained so that it's, you know, what, what, where it can, where
Speaker:the outcomes of this experiment will go.
Speaker:And you're prepared for anything out outside this boundaries.
Speaker:And I think in something like this, experimenting with something.
Speaker:We're actually, you know, again, if we're focusing on the aerosols at
Speaker:the moment, we're talking about, you know, stuff up in the atmosphere that
Speaker:we can't control where that goes, let alone go give everyone safety, right?
Speaker:Like there's, you know, like if this experiment goes sideways,
Speaker:you know, we can't, there's not a a method for us to sort of.
Speaker:Address the issue or the outcome with everyone that it could hit
Speaker:because we can't tell where it could go anywhere and affect anyone and
Speaker:and that could be in simply in.
Speaker:cooling one area of one continent.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:and warming another, right?
Speaker:Like it could be that we find that these aerosols collect in the jet stream in
Speaker:a certain location and that leads to an unintended impact that all of a sudden
Speaker:Europe is really cold, or Europe is really hot and Northern Africa is really,
Speaker:is very cool and temperate, right?
Speaker:Like that could be the outcome of this.
Speaker:And we don't know, um, because of how things collect in the
Speaker:jet stream and things and those.
Speaker:calculations.
Speaker:We, I don't know that we, you know, can really understand, we could start,
Speaker:you know, Harvard was going to, was, was about to do a, a small scale, uh,
Speaker:example study over, I think it was Sweden or Norway, I think it was Sweden.
Speaker:And there was, you know, they, there was sort of some outcry and
Speaker:it didn't happen, but they wanted to understand this in small scale.
Speaker:Um, I'm not opposed to us expanding our knowledge.
Speaker:, but I am worried about the, you know, and I think this comes to something
Speaker:that I think, uh, you said Jen, like if we start getting too much conversation
Speaker:around this, we start poking at this and it starts to become this crutch.
Speaker:Like, oh, well that's what's gonna save us.
Speaker:So we don't, I don't need to worry about this other thing I'm doing over here.
Speaker:It it re it absolves.
Speaker:This is that responsibility and yet this thing that we're hanging our hat.
Speaker:could actually exacerbate the problem and make it worse.
Speaker:Um, so to me it definitely feels like, now I'm gonna circle
Speaker:back to Ari's statement like,
Speaker:I don't know that I have a lot of examples that I can think of in
Speaker:modern recorded history where we've attempted to mess around with a system
Speaker:as large as our atmospheric climate, uh, ecosystem, and it's gone well.
Speaker:I, I, I can't think of many examples that fit that criteria, and so I'm
Speaker:concerned that this would fall into the other camp of, it did not go well.
Speaker:Christina had a, a comment too.
Speaker:Yeah, I, I have been thinking about, it's not, uh, about warming and
Speaker:cooling down, but it's about, uh, cloud seeding in California, uh, by nature.
Speaker:Uh, what happened in California?
Speaker:It, uh, the coastal bushes and forest were depleted and cut down, and it's changed.
Speaker:How much water fell down in the valley.
Speaker:And so they found out when the forest stayed, the water from the ocean rose
Speaker:went through the forest and then clouds gathered and then dropped the rain
Speaker:before it went down past to Nevada.
Speaker:So basically nature created cloud seating.
Speaker:So there is more water.
Speaker:In California than there is now, that when there are no coastal forests.
Speaker:So that, I just wanted to comment on that, that there are certain
Speaker:natural phenomena, there are cloud heating and it's very complicated.
Speaker:It's not only the.
Speaker:Rise re rising of the air and gathering.
Speaker:But also there are some chemical and changes something I'm not sure about
Speaker:exactly, but uh, there are some changes and things done by nature that the
Speaker:nature changes local weather and local.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So that was my.
Speaker:It's funny that you keep saying that.
Speaker:Um, nature knows, how to, , cloud sit because this, I would say it's
Speaker:a job of nature, of more nature to , to transform clouds into rain.
Speaker:. By nature, it is the, it's it's the job of nature.
Speaker:So, yeah, , it's made me smile.
Speaker:But I think we, we have the science of cloud sitting, um, using chemicals.
Speaker:I think we know how to do it, except that I think, I hope we don't use it
Speaker:too much because , because, um, because it's creates, um, negative effects.
Speaker:Like, you know, anything that you, you do when you mess up with nature,
Speaker:when you try to manipulate weather.
Speaker:But I think it's a technology we, we know how to use.
Speaker:That's, that's scary as well.
Speaker:I mean, scary, uh, if we use it too often, I don't know it, it's.
Speaker:and nature can do it without the chemicals.
Speaker:So , yes, we should, we should do that.
Speaker:, I think we're dangerous creatures.
Speaker:I heard a, um, I heard a, uh, first Nation person talking about, um, when
Speaker:we had the flooding here that was so bad in 2022 and people lost their farms and
Speaker:whole communities were underwater and, and such, um, from the Atmospheric river.
Speaker:There, there was quite some drama going around.
Speaker:A P community came out and were pumping out by hand the pump station, because if
Speaker:they didn't, the whole town would be gone.
Speaker:And, um, that whole thing was a result of a hundred years ago, they decided to
Speaker:empty a lake and they emptied a lake.
Speaker:Lake and they put in this pump station and they diverted the.
Speaker:to somewhere else so that they could farm the land that the lake, the
Speaker:bottom, at the bottom of the lake.
Speaker:And this First Nation person was just saying, you know, , none of this
Speaker:would've happened if that thing hadn't have happened because we had the
Speaker:technology a hundred years ago to do it.
Speaker:And uh, so yeah, we kind of mess things up, mess with Mother Nature, and then
Speaker:somebody suffers afterwards, you know?
Speaker:So it's.
Speaker:It's an interesting, it's the tension, right?
Speaker:We know how to do it.
Speaker:Should we do it?
Speaker:Is it important?
Speaker:Is it necessary?
Speaker:Is it the last ditch effort?
Speaker:Like where, where are we at with that?
Speaker:So Jen, it's interesting that you say that.
Speaker:And, and I, I guess one question I might come in and, and almost ask us about the
Speaker:language we're using, uh, which is you.
Speaker:does Mother Nature have an intention?
Speaker:Is it nature's job to do something right like that that denotes a certain
Speaker:sense of like a responsibility and an ability to choose to live up to that
Speaker:responsibility of doing that job or not?
Speaker:And, and I don't, you know, my, I guess my question is, is that, How
Speaker:things work or is, you know, there I, I guess I want to go back to are
Speaker:there things where we are creating this persona within nature of like,
Speaker:nature knows how to cloud seed without chemicals, so that's how we should do it.
Speaker:The nature does it with dust particles like it, that's how it happens naturally.
Speaker:And our chemical.
Speaker:You know, like our version of that, like our sort of manufactured version of that.
Speaker:But is there maybe to ask another question like is there, are there
Speaker:examples where when we let nature do what it does, it, it isn't advantageous?
Speaker:And maybe the question is like, it, who is it advantageous for?
Speaker:Like it is an advantageous for us if we let nature follow this.
Speaker:. Right?
Speaker:And maybe, maybe us being the center of that question is
Speaker:itself part of the problem?
Speaker:there?
Speaker:there, there, yes.
Speaker:Um, yeah, and I guess it depends on the world view and, and you know,
Speaker:from a First Nation perspective, um, indigenous perspective.
Speaker:there's great reverence and respect for nature and for what the power
Speaker:of nature and what nature can do.
Speaker:Um, which is maybe different from the perspective of, oh, look at all the things
Speaker:we can control , um, because we're, we're smart and we know how, and, and I think
Speaker:that, you know, the ravaging forest fires that we've seen and all these kinds of.
Speaker:um, like, like it's, it's hard.
Speaker:It depends on, on which perspective you come from, and if nature is
Speaker:a living, breathing thing, that was perfectly fine without us.
Speaker:And then we came in as, as, you know, as we became more technologically
Speaker:advanced and started messing things.
Speaker:, that's, that's a perspective, right?
Speaker:One of the focus of innovation over the years that we've tried to do it, which
Speaker:has led to like growth and development and all the amazing things that we see today.
Speaker:The mobile phone, the computer, the.
Speaker:Amazing technology that we've had.
Speaker:It's like we try to solve a problem, but we probably are not paying as much
Speaker:attention to what that solution might cost, you know, aside the mental, you
Speaker:know, energy that we put into it and, you know, some of all the other stuff.
Speaker:Um, it's like, okay, we want to take, I mean, and an, and an easy
Speaker:example is, well, let's go to.
Speaker:And yeah, we can now go to space.
Speaker:Well, let's take as many people as possible with us.
Speaker:Well, that's also possible.
Speaker:Cause you know, they're, they're working on that right now.
Speaker:But it's like, well you are going with a lot of fuel.
Speaker:You're going with a lot of all the stuff, and you're beginning to
Speaker:emit carbon in places that we don't even know if we can do that yet.
Speaker:Um, we've done enough around here now they're going to like the
Speaker:upper layers of, you know, the stratosphere and all the spheres You.
Speaker:It's like, well, well, we probably solved the problem of moving people
Speaker:from here to Mars, but we don't know what's going to happen if
Speaker:we do that at a commercial scale.
Speaker:but, but it's like, we're more worried about how we can get more people there
Speaker:than how that might affect, you know, the, the natural cause of things.
Speaker:And so it's like, well, maybe.
Speaker:Maybe we're, you know, we're moving fast, but we're probably just moving too fast.
Speaker:We probably should be spending more time on some of all the stuff that,
Speaker:that we try to, that we try to invent, um, or, you know, innovate
Speaker:on or make better progress on.
Speaker:And, you know, it's like, it's cool, but well, let's, let's be
Speaker:sure that it's actually cool, you know, and, and we're not just.
Speaker:And we're not just setting ourselves up for, for some disaster later on.
Speaker:I was thinking about the First nation or the indigenous perspective, um, that
Speaker:treats the environment and nature as, uh, as a living, breathing thing and
Speaker:there's a different approach to that.
Speaker:, that everything is, is in balance.
Speaker:That you take what you need and use it all.
Speaker:, you honor, you, respect you put it back, , it's more of a symbiotic
Speaker:relationship, I think in, in many ways.
Speaker:And, and yes, while we've had incredible.
Speaker:Advances and things we really need to advance in, including medicine and
Speaker:, innovations to help, uh, feed people.
Speaker:And, you know, there's lots and lots of different things that
Speaker:humans are amazing at inventing.
Speaker:It's, um, there are different perspectives on how to look after.
Speaker:Uh, nature, right?
Speaker:Are we, are we truly in charge and dominating it or are we
Speaker:living with respect in it?
Speaker:And, and those are two very different approaches, um, to, to the planet we live.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and if I could, if I can say something in addition to that, which
Speaker:is, which is what, you know, dwelling on what you just said, it's like, . Okay.
Speaker:For example, with agriculture, you know, I also think that the people that
Speaker:make a profit of some of these things are really quick to make that happen.
Speaker:Then, you know, care about nature, and greenwashing is proof of that, , and all
Speaker:the other stuff in the Ill like, it's like people, Grow food, you know, for example.
Speaker:And it's like, put a lot of chemicals into the ground and then, you know,
Speaker:the plant grows very fast, way faster than it probably should.
Speaker:, but then the food itself is not healthy as it should be because
Speaker:it's like, I mean, I heard a friend say, don't buy food from there.
Speaker:I'm like, why?
Speaker:And he says It's as good as swallowing.
Speaker:I'm like, . Okay, . And what he's saying is basically there's so much
Speaker:chemicals, you know, that's involved in getting that fruit or food to grow.
Speaker:It's not healthy to eat.
Speaker:I mean, even though it seems to have grown from the ground, and it's like the guys
Speaker:that are in charge of that don't care.
Speaker:They just wanna grow as.
Speaker:Possible in the shortest possible time and get that into the market.
Speaker:So it's like, well, maybe another thing to think about is like, you know, we
Speaker:profiting from some of these things that put nature, in some imbalance is,
Speaker:is, um, it's another thing to think about, , before we go ahead and say,
Speaker:yay, we have a new solution, , there's this, um, and I, I won't cite it well,
Speaker:but there's this, um, perspective, it's like a, a decision making lens that you
Speaker:look at, that, that I believe comes from.
Speaker:A tribe within the First Nations.
Speaker:I don't recall where, so I, I can't cite the source here, I've heard it referred
Speaker:to as, as the seven generation lens.
Speaker:Like as you look at each decision you make and each thing you choose to do, look at
Speaker:were that decision not to be done once, but to continue to be done in the pattern
Speaker:and pace that you are choosing to do it.
Speaker:What would the implications be?
Speaker:Seven generations.
Speaker:, what would be the implication if, you know?
Speaker:So, you know, I was walking down the street in New York City yesterday,
Speaker:and I sort of surprised at how much litter was around at the moment.
Speaker:And I was, you know, like, and then there someone was coming
Speaker:through and sweeping it up.
Speaker:And this was early in the morning.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:. And then I was leaving late in the day to go get on the train
Speaker:and go home, and there was a whole bunch of litter in the same spot.
Speaker:, you know, and next morning someone will come sweep it up,
Speaker:but then it goes somewhere, right?
Speaker:We're just displacing the impact.
Speaker:And I'm using Lit as a very simple example here, but whoever's walking,
Speaker:and this is admittedly 42nd street in Midtown Manhattan, but so there's a lot
Speaker:of people walking, but they're littering enough that it's even daily being swept.
Speaker:It's re accumulating.
Speaker:And if you imagined a week of that without it getting cleaned up, put somewhere
Speaker:else, let alone a month or a year.
Speaker:or a decade or one generation or two or three or four or five or
Speaker:six generations, I mean, you, it would become impassable, right?
Speaker:Within, within a year.
Speaker:It's impassable.
Speaker:Um, it's only made possible by the scooping it up and putting it somewhere
Speaker:else, but that somewhere else, there is a cost there that just gets not seen.
Speaker:So anyway, I ji some of what you were saying makes me think about.
Speaker:the decision making through a lens that has a longer longevity than the present.
Speaker:That is, that is such a beautiful way to see it, such a beautiful way to
Speaker:see, it makes me want to like actually just print that on and frame that and
Speaker:just put it on my wall just so I'm reminded every time that I, this is.
Speaker:Lens through which you should, you know, look before making decisions.
Speaker:Definitely don't put my name under it because I am not the source of it.
Speaker:doesn't need Brian under it.
Speaker:Brian said Brian.
Speaker:Sure, sure.
Speaker:You know I will.
Speaker:I will say there's, you know, like decisions I'm going through and it's,
Speaker:I try, I'm, I, I've been trying to, in fact, I've been working with one of
Speaker:our guests for a while and was really enjoying working with him, on some things.
Speaker:And it was really anchoring this idea, this sustainability concept in my mind.
Speaker:and it started leading to like stress and anxiety and just even the things
Speaker:that I think are like low impact, you know, uh, relative to the average impact.
Speaker:It was, you know, creating stress and anxiety to, because when you really
Speaker:look at most things in your life through that lens, there's not many that,
Speaker:there's not many for any of us that have, that truly are sustainable, one
Speaker:generation or seven generations out.
Speaker:And, and it becomes a really tough self-reflective lens
Speaker:to, to use on yourself.
Speaker:It creates a lot of thoughts.
Speaker:And now to, oh, I, I, I was gonna say that I think this is very key because,
Speaker:um, and I hope that a lot of people are this conscious, you know, because to,
Speaker:to actually save the planet, we can't have a few people thinking like this.
Speaker:And I think that's why conversations like this are very, very important.
Speaker:So like ideas like this need to spread, um, it's like an illustration
Speaker:in the carbon noac in, in a page.
Speaker:Um, and I have it here, but it says, it says that we're all in a giant bus heading
Speaker:towards a brick wall, and everyone's arguing for a place to see this.
Speaker:Okay, . It's a good content.
Speaker:Um, like, you know, it's more like, well we're all prioritizing the wrong thing.
Speaker:If we're all heading towards the same do and I'm glad we're doing this cause
Speaker:this makes conversations like this, you know, makes ideas like this to spread.
Speaker:Um, cause we really, really do need it to.
Speaker:, um, and to influence as many decisions that have been made as possible.
Speaker:So on that cheery topic, I think we need to
Speaker:No, it's good.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It, it's good.
Speaker:And I was, uh, when I was listening to this thing on the radio, I
Speaker:thought, okay, that's interesting.
Speaker:Um, whether I'm for or against.
Speaker:, what can I do about that?
Speaker:Well, you know, it's a piece of news that is not useful to me, but you,
Speaker:Ola, Benji, are very nicely, um, highlighted the fact that we, it
Speaker:help us have better conversations.
Speaker:So, yeah, so it was not another junk piece of news.
Speaker:So, is it fair to say that sounds good?
Speaker:Uh, not so much
Speaker:I, I, I think it's, I'll say it is, it is sounding, but it
Speaker:is, it's yet to sound good.
Speaker:, you know, more like, uh, yeah, but like, we need to answer a lot
Speaker:more questions before we talk.
Speaker:The budget for it.
Speaker:Like, well, what's the budget doing?
Speaker:You know, how many questions will the budget be able to answer if
Speaker:the solution's been deployed?
Speaker:Um, and all that.
Speaker:I mean, I know there are so many intelligent people working on it, so
Speaker:I mean, they probably are thinking about it, but, and I hope they are,
Speaker:but , Uh, and it's not, it's not so much a, a question of budget because
Speaker:it's, um, it causes a lot of money.
Speaker:But, you know, it's a, it's a sort of money that can be found.
Speaker:They're talking about 10 billion for that.
Speaker:I mean, it's, it's not so much money to solve all this,
Speaker:this, you know, this problem.
Speaker:So, yeah, it, it was really, a solution.
Speaker:The money can be found.
Speaker:You know, it's interesting.
Speaker:When I was researching it, there was a couple.
Speaker:Layers to it.
Speaker:You know, one layer was this sort of pushback against it even being
Speaker:explored in the, in the current modern conversation because of this sort of,
Speaker:it accidentally becoming this hope that everyone hangs their hat on and
Speaker:absolves them of their own responsibility and their, their daily behaviors.
Speaker:Like that was one re pushback reason against it.
Speaker:One that I found that was compelling and interesting that
Speaker:was for it for geoengineering was.
Speaker:There are some parts of climate change where as the impact of climate change
Speaker:has an impact, it actually is a self replicating and self, uh, accelerating
Speaker:cycle where the creation of the Dust Bowl actually creates more dust bowl, right?
Speaker:Like the, the thing becomes a self-reinforcing cycle and.
Speaker:If geoengineering can be used to shave off sort of the peak of this, like we're,
Speaker:we're, we're going in one, or maybe if we wanna use the classical down,
Speaker:we're going down in a bad direction.
Speaker:and like we're gonna, we're gonna try and pull this plane back around, be hopefully
Speaker:before the bus crashes in the wall.
Speaker:We're gonna, we're gonna pull it around, but maybe this just helps shave some
Speaker:of that peak off a little bit, even though it does have some implications.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Whether those are some, you know, and this is, this becomes a real mm-hmm.
Speaker:ethics dilemma.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:, right.
Speaker:Of, okay.
Speaker:Well, let's hypothetically say there are health implications
Speaker:to 1% of the world's popul.
Speaker:if we use aeros halls and 1% of the world's population has
Speaker:significant health impact mm-hmm.
Speaker:, but it means we go from, you know, we, we were tracking to hit two and a half
Speaker:degrees Celsius and we actually skate by, and we, we curl the bus around at
Speaker:only two degrees and that extra half a degree over the course of a decade might
Speaker:mean 5% of the world's population is.
Speaker:do you still do the action that puts at risk 1%?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:If you believe that the math bears out, that you'll save 5%.
Speaker:, you know, these become really big ethics questions.
Speaker:I don't mm-hmm.
Speaker:, Jen, you, I feel like the o you're the best suited to answer these
Speaker:Oh, no, . And, and I actually do have a follow up question, right?
Speaker:Because it's more like, hmm, if this is a solution, right?
Speaker:Like, and the budget for this is 10 billion.
Speaker:My other question is, what else can 10 billion do to curb
Speaker:the problem that we have now?
Speaker:And can we do that instead?
Speaker:Um, you know, I mean, to put that in perspective, you know, we've got,
Speaker:um, I was just reading an article.
Speaker:I might actually still have it up here about, let me see if I do.
Speaker:Um, about the US clean energy transition and, uh, Mr.
Speaker:Gigha, who is sort of heading up and he's, he's in charge of the US deploying
Speaker:400 billion, so 40 times as much money.
Speaker:is being deployed in the US over a only a few years towards, you
Speaker:know, a variety of programs.
Speaker:Things like solar incentives and other clean energy incentives, you know,
Speaker:many different kinds of programs.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:, um, that's 400 billion.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:You know, if you went to him and his, and his US based department
Speaker:and you said, here's four instead of 400, you now have 410.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:That would tip.
Speaker:I don't know that, that, that extra 10 billion worth, well,
Speaker:to us it sounds like a lot.
Speaker:I don't know that it would sway things significantly differently in the impact
Speaker:of his programs to go from 400 to four 10.
Speaker:Yeah, that's, that's on perspective.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Interesting conversation.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:, Pandora's.
Speaker:Just call it that.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:I mean, I, you know, I, I really think some of it comes down to, I, I'd liken
Speaker:it to that experiment that if you, you're not sure what could happen, but
Speaker:you know that some of what could happen, Has fairly negative consequences for
Speaker:some people, but it could yield very positive outcomes for other people.
Speaker:But you don't know who, which is, which are we in a place to pull the trigger to
Speaker:like make that decision, take that action?
Speaker:Like how do you assess that decision from an ethics perspective?
Speaker:And yet maybe we can ask the same question every day that we enjoy some convenience.
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Let's say that convenience is getting in an airplane and flying
Speaker:to see a friend just for a weekend away on a sunny beach because it's
Speaker:cold and blustery and wintery.
Speaker:Here in the Northeast or many other places, there's a, there's a current,
Speaker:you're benefiting someone, maybe you and that friend, but at the expense
Speaker:of an impact to someone else, right?
Speaker:Somewhere.
Speaker:The impact of that, It's landings, the impact is landing somewhere.
Speaker:Um, and you don't know where, but it has a negative impact.
Speaker:And so every day we make these decisions.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:, we just, I think, aren't confronted with them as a question in the same
Speaker:way that maybe something as big as this geoengineering topic becomes an inherent.
Speaker:binary question and, and another thought is that it's an all or nothing solution in
Speaker:that there may be people who don't agree with it, but they won't have a choice.
Speaker:, if we're talking about something that goes up into the atmosphere that affects
Speaker:the entire planet and could continue to affect it for years because the
Speaker:particles or the aerosols won't go.
Speaker:they'll be, they'll be up there somewhere.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Um, yeah.
Speaker:It's, it's a big, big thing.
Speaker:, big question.
Speaker:That's huge.
Speaker:If it works, um, whoever owns the technology will say, will claim
Speaker:that I, I own the world because I solved the world's biggest problem.
Speaker:So the world is mine.
Speaker:So that creates another, yeah.
Speaker:Major problem again.
Speaker:So interesting.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Things that make you say, hm.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:. Yeah, I, I, I think this is definitely a topic to track progress on and follow up,
Speaker:you know, seriously with, to, um, to keep our listeners abreast of what's happening.
Speaker:And so who knows someone in position might be listening as well.
Speaker:And, um, yeah, this definitely something to, to, to keep talking.
Speaker:Until we see through.
Speaker:Whatever that means, . Uh, but I think we opened the Pandora box
Speaker:long time ago when we first made the decision to drill holes to get oil.
Speaker:You know, when you, you said, oh, Pandora box.
Speaker:you know, the image that came to my mind was the, the scene of, I
Speaker:don't know if you've seen it, um, this film with Daniel Delis, I think
Speaker:called There Will Be Blood Yes.
Speaker:Frame Movie.
Speaker:It's, that's, that's a great movie.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:And, um, so it's the story of the, I think the, the first, um, one of the
Speaker:first, um, uh, what do you call it?
Speaker:Uh, you know, people that went and find and looked for oil and that
Speaker:there was one of the first companies, I don't know if it's based on the
Speaker:true story, but it was really, really compelling because it's, um, it.
Speaker:About maybe like 10 or 15 years ago.
Speaker:I didn't get the whole sense of there will be blood because of, you know, it, uh,
Speaker:with the oil, it comes a lot of money.
Speaker:And, uh, and so he, uh, he is lost.
Speaker:I think his family and, you know, he, he end up alone, lonely.
Speaker:But then now I get the full essence of the title.
Speaker:There will be Blood because it's, you know, by drilling this whole.
Speaker:uh, it's not oil, the black thing that came out, but it's really blood and,
Speaker:uh, we'll pay the consequences of that.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:We need to end this on a high note.
Speaker:Trying,
Speaker:well, here's, here's the high note that I will say.
Speaker:Let's see here.
Speaker:I've got two directions I could take it.
Speaker:One as a high.
Speaker:I'm gonna go to the 400 billion that we're spending here in the US and
Speaker:I work in a business for my day job where we do real estate transactions
Speaker:and we transact in the energy space.
Speaker:And I have a number of clients who are building large solar fields and wind
Speaker:farms and these kind of things, and.
Speaker:With some of these incentives fueled by, in this case the example, 400
Speaker:billion, uh, for our local economy.
Speaker:The pace and the speed of these projects and the, the volume of them really
Speaker:is picking up and it's becoming a much bigger, faster growing part of,
Speaker:at least here in the US with these incentives and things like, it's really
Speaker:an interesting speeding up kind of process and to me that's exciting.
Speaker:to get to work with that on a daily basis and sort of see, you know, early
Speaker:this morning I was working on a 4,000 acre wind farm project, you know,
Speaker:and we're, we're dealing with these, you know, like really exciting kind
Speaker:of things where I'm like, oh, this is, this is gonna make a difference.
Speaker:And, that's one positive note is I, I do think that there are dollars
Speaker:that are going and are creating pattern change that do hopefully
Speaker:move us towards a sustainability.
Speaker:Cuz if you put that seven generation.
Speaker:on some of those things.
Speaker:It's like, yeah, like I can see that being good and useful for mm-hmm.
Speaker:for those seven generations and forward.
Speaker:Um, and the other one I would say is while I was researching this
Speaker:geoengineering, I was surprised at the many other versions of geoengineering.
Speaker:that are actually available to some of us.
Speaker:Things like planting a tree, right?
Speaker:Like that's, you know, there's these different other kinds that
Speaker:we don't necessarily think of in this big global movable climb,
Speaker:you know, Airstream kind of way.
Speaker:But like you just think about them because they're on the ground
Speaker:differently, but, oh wait, yeah.
Speaker:Meat planting a tree, right?
Speaker:We have Arbor Day coming up in a bit like that is helping geo
Speaker:engineer and move the planet toward.
Speaker:, uh, direction in a good way.
Speaker:So maybe we can all think about the, the kind of geoengineering that is
Speaker:an experiment that we can do within constraints and won't hurt other people
Speaker:and will likely lead to good things.
Speaker:Plant a tree, grow some food.
Speaker:I love that . Yeah, there's our good, there's our good.
Speaker:Thanks Brian.
Speaker:Yeah, . This was lovely friends.
Speaker:Thanks for the conversation.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Good to see you all.
Speaker:Good to see you too.
Speaker:Bye-bye.
Speaker:Good to see you.
Speaker:Bye.
Speaker:Thanks.
Speaker:I enjoyed it.
Speaker:You've been listening to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with carbon
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