Episode 210

Carl Gough – Finding Your Nexus Through Storytelling

Episode Summary: In this powerful and moving episode, we welcome storyteller and social entrepreneur Carl Gough, founder of the Nexus project. Carl shares his deeply personal journey through grief, identity loss, and rediscovery during the lockdown, and how storytelling became his way back to meaning, connection, and agency. 

Through bonfire tales, barefoot performances, and a growing international presence, Carl has developed a unique approach to storytelling as a tool for emotional resilience and climate engagement. He explains how myths and folktales offer vital breathing room in a media-saturated world, and how the act of sharing stories, rather than drowning in despair, can rekindle a sense of purpose. 

We also explore: 

  • The alchemy between storyteller and audience 
  • How stories can help us reclaim agency in the face of climate paralysis 
  • Why grief, when acknowledged, can become a doorway to action 
  • The origins and power of the Nexus storytelling project 
  • The challenges of translating a deeply emotional in-person workshop into an online space 

Listen in for a timely reminder that we are not too small to make a difference—and that the stories we choose to tell ourselves shape the world we live in.   

Update: 

Since we recorded this episode, Carl Gough has taken on a new role promoting the protection and restoration of seagrass—a crucial marine habitat—to help safeguard our ocean environments. 

-----  

Mentioned in this episode: 

Carl’s performance storytelling website: https://storytelling.wales 

TEDx Talk: What if stories could change the climate? – Carl Gough at TEDx Nantymoel 

Beyond the Border Festival (Wales International Storytelling Festival) 

-----  

Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Steve Heatherington, Tania Marien, Rob Slate and Leekei Tang.  

From a beautiful valley in Wales, UK, Steve is a Podcast Coach, Producer and Alpaca Shepherd. Steve is fascinated by the ideas of regeneration beyond sustainability and is still a biologist at heart.  

From Riverside, California, Tania is an independent environmental education professional and hosts and produces The Talaterra Podcast.    

Rob is from Birmingham in the UK, he is an orthodontist, triathlete, coach and podcaster. 

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert, and podcaster from Paris, France.  

----- 

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org 

Want to join in the conversation? 

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives. 

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up! 

-----  

The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater. 

Transcript
Speaker:

Hi, I'm leaky.

2

:

Hi, I'm Tanya.

3

:

Hi, I am Steve.

4

:

Hi, I'm Rob.

5

:

Hi, I'm Carl.

6

:

Carl, it is so good to have you with us.

7

:

Thank you for being part of this episode.

8

:

So where's, where's home for you?

9

:

Original home.

10

:

Oh, you don't wanna ask that question?

11

:

Oh, now I do, but, but this

is why for me, Wales is home.

12

:

Okay.

13

:

'cause my entire childhood was moving

pillar to post, never really feeling like.

14

:

I had roots.

15

:

'cause as soon as I started feeling

like I had roots, we'd move on.

16

:

So I like to say I was born where they

built terminal four of Heathrow airport.

17

:

When I came to Wales, as I believe

you did, Steve, it was like, oh, this,

18

:

this is where I'm supposed to be.

19

:

Is that real sense of belonging to

the land, that sense of rith that

20

:

the, the Welsh talk of so often.

21

:

Here.

22

:

Ith being a Welsh word,

just snuck one in there.

23

:

Needs, needs an interpretation.

24

:

So it is a place, and I think you can

be at home anywhere, but there are

25

:

some places where we just feel more

fully ourselves and more, more at home.

26

:

One of the, the key reasons we kind

of connected was the whole area of

27

:

storytelling, so as well as your

day job, a lot of your heart and

28

:

your passion is in storytelling.

29

:

How do you connect with

storytelling in the first place?

30

:

Um, like most people, I think it was a

case of storytelling connecting with me.

31

:

It was kind of the other way around.

32

:

Never in a million years did I

anticipate being a storyteller, and

33

:

then I was in a job as a project

manager of a social enterprise that was

34

:

environmentally focused, but also, uh.

35

:

Supporting people with wellbeing

through work in the environment.

36

:

And the founder decided all of a sudden

that she wanted to do a Halloween event.

37

:

And she said, right, Carl,

you can do some ghost stories.

38

:

I was like, no, I'm not a storyteller.

39

:

And she said, oh, yeah, but

you are, you are comfortable

40

:

speaking in front of people.

41

:

So I, I was thrust into it.

42

:

Uh hmm.

43

:

Against my will, but wanting to do

what was asked, but I was terrified.

44

:

I was absolutely terrified.

45

:

So much so that on the night itself,

I didn't only wear a mask, but I had

46

:

face paints underneath the mask so

that no matter what, I could hide from

47

:

people in some way, shape, or form.

48

:

We had a bonfire.

49

:

Everyone was sat on logs.

50

:

And it was the most incredible

thing that as I began to share these

51

:

stories, which I'm sure I did them

terribly at the time, but even so,

52

:

there was something that happened

amongst this group of disparate people.

53

:

We had people who'd come together,

they didn't know each other.

54

:

And in that wonderful reddish

orange glow that you get when people

55

:

are sat around a bonfire in the

the darkness, something happened.

56

:

People began to connect to each other.

57

:

Little children started to

snuggle into their parents.

58

:

I thought there's something

unexpected happening here.

59

:

And then the next year, the founder

wanted to do it again and the

60

:

next year, and so I got started.

61

:

Purely through, through sharing

ghost stories around Halloween,

62

:

and I started to do it voluntarily

for other community events.

63

:

And then somebody came up to me after

one of these events and said, oh,

64

:

have you been to Beyond the Border?

65

:

I had no idea what they were referring

to, but beyond the border was the, the

66

:

Wales International Storytelling Festival.

67

:

And that's when I realized

storytelling was a legitimate thing.

68

:

Uh, so I went to the festival and

suddenly this whole new world opened.

69

:

And it's, it stalked me

through the shadows ever since.

70

:

Well, lovely way to describe it.

71

:

Yes.

72

:

So I've been in a room with you where

you've been telling stories and I

73

:

know that you like to take your shoes

off and your socks off and have,

74

:

have connection with the ground.

75

:

I don't suppose you did that on

the first night round the bonfire.

76

:

'cause it's a bit tricky.

77

:

No.

78

:

Outside, uh, and around the bonfire.

79

:

But there is that, that, that sense of.

80

:

I don't know.

81

:

Is it you inhabiting the story

or the story inhabiting you?

82

:

When I've seen you in action as it were

doing, doing that, there's something

83

:

very deliberate about what you're doing.

84

:

Do the stories grow in the

telling and do they change

85

:

depending on who the audience is?

86

:

Yes.

87

:

Is the easy answer.

88

:

Well, okay, next question.

89

:

Uh, if you want something a little bit

fuller, I mean the, the bare feet thing.

90

:

Never ceases to fascinate me.

91

:

It, it seems to be quite provocative.

92

:

I initially started doing it for a

very practical reason, one because.

93

:

When you tell stories in front of

people, you get ridiculously hot.

94

:

There's like this furnace

that starts burning inside.

95

:

And so partly it helps me stay cool and

partly it, it does help ground me 'cause

96

:

it's very easy to end up too much in your

head rather than responding in the moment.

97

:

But people do comment

on it quite regularly.

98

:

I'm curious about it, but I will

continue to do it for the very practical

99

:

reasons that that I've mentioned.

100

:

As to the telling of the stories,

there's a very interesting chemistry

101

:

that goes on between teller and audience,

and that is what storytelling really

102

:

is about, which is why a lot of.

103

:

Performance storytellers.

104

:

Notice, I have to say performance

storyteller to distinguish

105

:

us from everyone else who

says they're a storyteller.

106

:

The reason performance storytellers

get frustrated at the misuse of the

107

:

word storytelling is that it totally

ignores that special chemistry, that

108

:

responsiveness, because the story.

109

:

Is not my creation.

110

:

The story is our creation.

111

:

The moment that story leaves my

lips, I have no control over how

112

:

it's received, how it's interpreted.

113

:

All of that is determined by each

and every individual in that audience

114

:

and what they are bringing to that

moment, what that story is resonating

115

:

within them, and that's why.

116

:

Trying to use storytelling in an applied

way is inherently tricky because you

117

:

have to be respectful of each and every

audience member's opportunity to take

118

:

whatever they need from that story.

119

:

Or indeed just go, no,

that one's not for me.

120

:

Yeah.

121

:

But there are stories that you tell,

um, and do they, do they grow over time?

122

:

Do you, do you, do you retell them?

123

:

It's the same story, but it's it, do you

embellish, do you, do you try things out?

124

:

Do you experiment as you go?

125

:

Or do you try and stay true to

the, the original, whatever it

126

:

is that you, you've learned?

127

:

There are.

128

:

Spontaneous things that happen.

129

:

Uh, so when you first work with a

story and you are trying to inhabit

130

:

that story, it's very changeable.

131

:

Over time, it tends to.

132

:

Embed and get a little bit more settled,

it becomes more integrated within you.

133

:

So there are stories that I will

happily tell right off the cuff.

134

:

And there are other stories that I have

paused for thought 'cause I'm like, Ooh,

135

:

I'm not sure if that one's quite to hand.

136

:

So there is that difference.

137

:

Difference in how the stories

sort of live within you.

138

:

This is where the audience becomes

that extra vital ingredient.

139

:

Mm-hmm.

140

:

Because there are things that will

happen in the moment, and this

141

:

isn't a play, it's not scripted,

and so something unexpected happens.

142

:

A for example, what you can often have

is a siren of an emergency vehicle

143

:

suddenly comes and goes, you know, well.

144

:

There are ways of sort of incorporating it

so that you don't break this bubble of the

145

:

story and it's, it's a little sort of nod,

wink, and there's usually a bit of humor.

146

:

Those sort of spontaneous things are

commonplace in storytelling in addition

147

:

to all of a sudden these sudden insights

that will spring up in the moment and

148

:

for no conscious reason whatsoever.

149

:

They occur here and then

suddenly they're out.

150

:

There you go.

151

:

Oh, okay.

152

:

So we're going there and this is where

the story then begins to sort of use

153

:

you more as a puppet than anything.

154

:

Interesting.

155

:

Um, and you've done this in

various places as well, of course.

156

:

Beyond the border was,

was very much South Wales.

157

:

It was in the Glor, then

it moved to Kamal Deur.

158

:

And sadly, like so many festivals these

days, uh, unfortunately it is no more.

159

:

Mm.

160

:

But, uh, yeah, the, the Phoenix

proverbially rising from the ashes.

161

:

I'm hearing whispers of

ooh, of something afoot.

162

:

But we shall see.

163

:

We shall see.

164

:

We shall see.

165

:

But I know you've been to China.

166

:

For example, I have, um, and

telling stories there, oh,

167

:

what an experience that was.

168

:

I've been to China twice.

169

:

Uh, very different

experiences on each occasion.

170

:

Uh, but yeah, I mean, just never,

I I still, I still can't quite

171

:

believe that I've been, uh, yeah.

172

:

But I was, it's, it's a very.

173

:

Intense country.

174

:

Uh, and certainly the experience

of being there, it's, uh, it, let

175

:

me just say it's a very different

pace of life compared to a lovely,

176

:

quiet Green Valley in South Wales.

177

:

Right.

178

:

And then Germany more recently, not very

recently, but, um, is it, it's still,

179

:

that was earlier this year, wasn't it?

180

:

Uh, that was a couple of months ago now.

181

:

Yes.

182

:

Yeah.

183

:

Yeah.

184

:

That, that was quite

a while in the making.

185

:

That was somebody who saw my

new show at Beyond the Border.

186

:

Came to the workshop that I

did afterwards, and then they

187

:

said, oh, we, we've, we've gotta

bring you to Germany to do this.

188

:

And likewise, I was like, really?

189

:

Not, not that I, not that I lack

self-belief, but I lack self-belief.

190

:

Uh, yeah.

191

:

And they, to their credit.

192

:

Uh, they were very committed

to working with me.

193

:

Uh, the date we initially chose had to

be moved because the venue was lost.

194

:

And so, yeah, it was actually over

a year after they saw the show that

195

:

I eventually arrived in Hamburg.

196

:

Hmm.

197

:

And this, this new show that

you're talking about is Nexus?

198

:

Yes.

199

:

It's my, my little baby.

200

:

Yeah.

201

:

And alongside that, or.

202

:

With that is the workshop

aspect of, of that.

203

:

'cause there, there's the performance, but

there's also the, the workshop side of it.

204

:

Love to explore that, that further.

205

:

I just wonder if there's any of

the others, um, that are, that

206

:

are with us whether there's,

there's questions at this point.

207

:

Yeah.

208

:

Thank, thanks for, um, your introduction

to, um, storytelling and I've, I'm

209

:

sort of seeing this and thinking

storytelling is something that, uh, isn't.

210

:

Necessarily talk talked about a lot

in, in popular culture at the moment.

211

:

Um, and I, I just wonder

why I am thinking that.

212

:

'cause I think storytelling and

dance probably go back far further

213

:

than any formal writing and grammar

and all, all this sort of thing.

214

:

And yet in the UK I don't

really think that storytelling.

215

:

Is necessarily a big part of

the educational curriculum.

216

:

And I just wondered, uh, 'cause you've

traveled around the world, how you've

217

:

seen different countries treating

storytelling in a cultural way.

218

:

Yeah, it's really interesting.

219

:

The differences, certainly in the

uk it is viewed as something for the

220

:

children, not for adults, whereas.

221

:

When I was doing a lot of work with

refugees and asylum seekers, uh, I was

222

:

fortunate to be involved in a project

that was actually funded through Arts

223

:

Council Wales and coordinated by beyond

the border, working with refugees and

224

:

asylum seekers, using stories as a way

to help them understand the country

225

:

they had come to, but in addition,

using stories to help them develop.

226

:

Confidence with the English language

and what was very, very clear

227

:

with these people, whether they'd

come from the African continent,

228

:

from the Middle East, Uzbekistan,

they clearly cherish storytelling.

229

:

You know, the, the reception

I got from these people when.

230

:

I was introduced as the storyteller.

231

:

Oh my goodness, me, you know,

you, you'd think you were

232

:

royalty walking into the room.

233

:

So there is very much a difference

culturally around the world

234

:

in, in how people view stories.

235

:

I don't feel I'm qualified to pass

comment on the reasons for that.

236

:

I have my own personal thoughts,

but, uh, they, they are simply that,

237

:

but yet it is very interesting.

238

:

China was interesting because obviously

with the cultural revolution and I, I

239

:

regret that I never got the opportunity

to see Chinese storytelling 'cause it

240

:

was almost wiped out, but it survived.

241

:

Uh, and in the tea houses, now it's, it's.

242

:

It's having a, a renaissance, but I never

got the chance to actually experience it.

243

:

It's a very different style of

storytelling, very physical.

244

:

Everything is very deliberate with

gestures that accompany the stories.

245

:

But yes, Rob, it's a very

different picture, depending

246

:

where in the world you are.

247

:

Yeah, I just wonder if there's

barriers, a part of it.

248

:

'cause I, I know you've done some work

with, uh, British Sign Language and,

249

:

uh, in some cultures such as in Martha's

Vineyard where there are a lot of deaf

250

:

people, the culture has changed there.

251

:

So people will flip from speech to

signing for emphasis sometimes, and

252

:

that becomes part of the storytelling.

253

:

One person combining, combining the two.

254

:

And, uh, it's those barriers that

seem to have created that culture of

255

:

storytelling in that part of the world.

256

:

That, that was a really exciting

project to be part of as well.

257

:

I was quite ignorant of

the deaf community really.

258

:

And through working with Tony Evans,

uh, just realizing that the deaf

259

:

community is actually quite reliant,

well not reliant, but there, there is a

260

:

vibrant culture of storytelling within

the, the deaf community through sign.

261

:

Yeah.

262

:

Thank you.

263

:

So the, the development of the, the

whole Nexus project, you tell the story.

264

:

How did that come about?

265

:

Oh, it, it has to start with

COVID, uh, with lockdown.

266

:

And the fact that I went into lockdown

already in grief, uh, three months

267

:

before my mother had died unexpectedly.

268

:

She went in for a routine

operation in hospital, developed

269

:

a postoperative infection, and

one week later she was gone.

270

:

The ripples that that created in our

family, uh, were somewhat destructive.

271

:

Then before any healing could occur, we

were all thrown into isolation and I was

272

:

thrown into a place where everything,

absolutely everything I thought was

273

:

real, no longer was, you know, my family.

274

:

Was not the family.

275

:

I thought it was work was no longer the

way it was, you know, home life, lockdown,

276

:

no social connections, no st There was

nothing going on to give me stability,

277

:

uh, and without laboring the point I, I

went to some very dark places, but, uh.

278

:

It's true enough to say that sometimes you

need to spend some time in the darkness

279

:

to see where the light is in this process.

280

:

I couldn't understand who I was anymore

because with my past work history.

281

:

My past work history has generally

centered upon the natural world.

282

:

I started off in aquatics and public

aqua, went on to work in zoological parks.

283

:

I returned to education, did my

degree in marine biology, then

284

:

a, a master's in, in zoology.

285

:

Went into biological research.

286

:

I was a national part

ward and all this stuff.

287

:

This was.

288

:

Integral to who I was and what my identity

was, and then somewhere along the way.

289

:

As it tends to happen all too

gradually, that kind of faded.

290

:

And I ended up in the, the work that,

that I do, uh, the day job as, as

291

:

so referred to it, which is support

and advice for the development of

292

:

social businesses, social enterprises.

293

:

So still ethical, still values driven

and environment dips in and outta that.

294

:

But in COVID suddenly it

was like, well, who am I?

295

:

And what is important?

296

:

And it wasn't until the stories began

to come through in the media of.

297

:

In the uk certainly most of us

are aware of the wild goats that

298

:

started running the streets of

Cland, dido eating people's hedges.

299

:

But these stories began to

proliferate around the world.

300

:

There were, there were deer running

the streets of Tokyo Wild Bo Barcelona.

301

:

There were endangered species coming

outta the jungle in South America.

302

:

Uh, and.

303

:

Oh, the in, in the dark place

that I was, these stories were

304

:

like, oh, I need more of this.

305

:

But through that experience, it made

me realize that I'd been without that

306

:

joy for quite a long time, and that

is when I started to examine why.

307

:

And that remains an ongoing process.

308

:

And I won't go through all the various

steps because there have been many steps.

309

:

It's been a very personal journey

because there's no roadmap, at least

310

:

none that I could find that said,

oh yes, this is, this is, these are

311

:

the symptoms of this and this is

what you need to do to resolve it.

312

:

There was none of that, and so piece

by piece, I started to sort through

313

:

the sort of taters of my own identity.

314

:

That's really what it was to start to

piece together what mattered to me.

315

:

In the midst of all that, I came across

this little mantra, and I don't even

316

:

really know where it came from, but on one

particular day where my head was spinning,

317

:

'cause I was trying to think, oh, I

wanna do all this stuff, but I can't.

318

:

And all I could see were the barriers

that were stopping me from installing

319

:

an air source heat pump in the house

and all these things that I wanted

320

:

to do because it's not right that the

planet is dying and, and everything just

321

:

started to get so big and from nowhere.

322

:

This sort of inner voice

said, look, it's quite simple.

323

:

You just have to decide do you want to do

something or do you want to do nothing?

324

:

And the moment I realized that all of the

stress and anxiety just evaporated because

325

:

it, I realized it was as simple as that.

326

:

So the moment.

327

:

That things start

becoming too much for me.

328

:

I, I use that mantra all the time

and it's like, right, why am I

329

:

feeling this way about this thing?

330

:

Is it something that I feel

I want to do something about

331

:

or do I want to do nothing?

332

:

And the thing is that choosing

to do nothing is just as valid

333

:

as choosing to do something.

334

:

Because there are things that are far

beyond our power to do anything about.

335

:

And by expending energy on those

things, we are not achieving anything.

336

:

We're making ourselves feel

dreadful in the process, but we are

337

:

not effective in doing anything.

338

:

So deciding, you know what, that

is not actually my, something

339

:

that is somebody else's.

340

:

So let that go.

341

:

Let's focus on the stuff

that is your something.

342

:

And for me, that turned out

to be well storytelling.

343

:

That's my something.

344

:

And that's when little by little, these

little pieces started to come together

345

:

to build this picture of what I could do.

346

:

I started to blend the

different areas of my life.

347

:

At one time, I had a very wonderful,

neat and tidy compartmentalized life.

348

:

So I had my storyteller here.

349

:

And the part of my life that was

to do with social business support

350

:

was over here and my social life,

it was all very neat and tidy.

351

:

And the COVID experience just

demolished all those, those boundaries.

352

:

And it enabled me to go, oh,

well let me take this little

353

:

thing here and put it with this.

354

:

And I started to look at theory of

change and my story starting to.

355

:

Draw upon a few concepts that were

potentially important in driving some

356

:

form of change through storytelling.

357

:

And then the sort of real tipping

point for me that led to the show I

358

:

call Nexus, was when a story landed in

my lap and it was like, oh, oh, okay.

359

:

This reflects everything

I'm looking at right now.

360

:

I need to do something with this.

361

:

And that's how the, the Nexus

show kind of unfolded, the

362

:

workshop that sits alongside it.

363

:

Is my attempt to try and provide the

roadmap, which I wish I had in COVID,

364

:

is kind of a structure, a process

that can take people through some of

365

:

the thought processes and some of the

feelings using story and using social

366

:

storytelling to come to a place of

resolution and begin to face that question

367

:

of whether you want to do something

or whether you want to do nothing.

368

:

Excellent.

369

:

Thank you.

370

:

That's really helpful.

371

:

I'm sure that it's part of the Nexus

project that I'm very excited, very

372

:

intrigued, uh, to learn more about.

373

:

But Rob say that, you know,

storytelling is not part of our

374

:

culture, but I don't completely

agree with you because, uh, in the.

375

:

Debate of climate change.

376

:

When you turn on the, the television

or when you read this read news, the

377

:

newspaper, or when you go social media,

it's, there's a love stories and,

378

:

uh, desperate stories, uh, stories of

people that going to very dark places.

379

:

And, um, as a result of that.

380

:

I think we feel really powerless and

there's a lot of anxiety that grows

381

:

within everybody and that makes us really

paralyzed and, you know, push us to

382

:

probably do nothing and just like feel

that it is too big for us to do something.

383

:

So how do you take people from, you

know, from this place of despair from.

384

:

Detoxify with all these negative stories,

you know, is it, how, what's the process?

385

:

How does it work?

386

:

Because I'm facing the problem when I

talk to an audience because I, that's it.

387

:

I've decided, I'm not looking at the.

388

:

At the negative side.

389

:

So I'd rather look at the

perspective and, and, uh, and the

390

:

possibility, you know, the, the new

opportunities that lie ahead of us.

391

:

But it's real difficult to

have this kind of conversation.

392

:

So I'd like to learn from you.

393

:

How do you do that?

394

:

If only I had had the magic wand

in some of the stories that I, I

395

:

tell, uh, but not exactly leaky,

and that was where I started.

396

:

It was like, oh, how do I do, you know?

397

:

It's impossible.

398

:

You cannot do that.

399

:

One little storyteller will never be able

to squash the stories of mainstream media.

400

:

They're just too abundant,

they're too prolific, and let's

401

:

face it, news reporting is no

longer about reporting the news.

402

:

It's about chasing ratings that.

403

:

For me is where the problem resides,

but I can't do anything about that,

404

:

so I'm gonna do nothing about that.

405

:

What I did see though, is a way to help

people become more aware that that.

406

:

Is a significant contributor to what

is going on for them internally.

407

:

That is a very different proposition, and

so I don't try and fight fire with fire.

408

:

My approach is to look

at the person, look at.

409

:

What they're struggling

with, hopelessness, fear,

410

:

all these other things.

411

:

There are abundant stories that talk

to these experiences, and the value

412

:

of being able to share a myth, a

legend of folktale, is that for the

413

:

period of time you are telling it,

that person who's hearing it is no

414

:

longer sat in that room, is no longer.

415

:

Dealing with whatever

issues they're dealing with.

416

:

They're in the story, they're traveling

with you as long as you've built that

417

:

trust with them, of course, and because

of that, you are able to transport

418

:

them somewhere else where they have

the heart space and the head space to

419

:

consider other possibilities and that.

420

:

Is where I spend my focus.

421

:

It's looking at the fact so many

of us currently feel voiceless.

422

:

Drawing very much on my own experience

through COVID, I realized that I,

423

:

I wasn't talking to my nearest and

dearest my friends, my work colleagues

424

:

about what I thought regarding the

environment for a whole load of reasons.

425

:

One, because, oh, I

don't feel I know enough.

426

:

Two, I don't want to get into an argument.

427

:

You know, there's, there's all these

reasons why people stop themselves.

428

:

And my, my theory of

change was quite simple.

429

:

I wondered what would happen if

everybody who was feeling a certain

430

:

way actually began to express it

instead of squash it and bury it.

431

:

'cause in the bigger scheme of things.

432

:

The change we need has to come from

governments, and governments are not

433

:

going to introduce the policies and

decisions that are gonna lose them votes.

434

:

So until people start being vocal,

don't get me wrong, I'm, I'm full

435

:

of admiration for the people who hit

the streets, you know, the activists

436

:

who really do make the noise.

437

:

I, but my, my focus is not then.

438

:

Because they are already there.

439

:

Yeah.

440

:

My focus is on the next door neighbor

and Sarah down the street who's, who's

441

:

a single mum with two kids who's got

too many other things to worry about.

442

:

You know, these are the people who I know

through the research I've done with Nexus.

443

:

I know almost everybody, almost,

almost everybody I've spoken to.

444

:

Is really worried what the

future holds, especially parents.

445

:

Mm.

446

:

But what do I do about it?

447

:

There's nothing I can do.

448

:

There's no point saying anything.

449

:

And, and that's what

we've gotta change, so.

450

:

To come back to what you were saying,

yo, those stories that we are exposed

451

:

to, they are part of the problem.

452

:

They are part of the story we are being

told and the story we tell ourselves

453

:

that this is too big for little old me.

454

:

Look, I'm just living in a tiny little

Welsh valley and the world's a big

455

:

scary place and nothing I can do.

456

:

No, no.

457

:

There is nothing you can do there.

458

:

You can talk to your family about it,

you can talk to your friends about it,

459

:

and you can talk when the elections

come round to the politicians about

460

:

it, there's so many different issues

that come into politics and I just feel

461

:

the environmental one has been, oh.

462

:

It's just my, my point of view.

463

:

But it does feel that the environmental

debate has been very cleverly, um,

464

:

distorted to be about something

else when actually it's about

465

:

parents who are too scared to talk

to their children about the future.

466

:

And I, I'm specifically referring to

a conversation I had with a parent.

467

:

A mother of two teenage sons and she

said, I know they're scared and I

468

:

know I should be talking to them about

this, but I dunno what to say to them.

469

:

And so she says nothing, you know,

and that's, that's where I mean

470

:

the, there's the post-it note

I drag out on a regular basis.

471

:

I'll reach out 'cause it's in my office.

472

:

And I do like to share it.

473

:

The call, it's this one here

that a young 13-year-old girl

474

:

drew during a consultation where

I was asking for thoughts and

475

:

feelings about the environment.

476

:

And it was a, it was a youth circus,

and they very kindly said that I could

477

:

come in and speak to their young people.

478

:

And this girl.

479

:

She didn't join the conversation, but

she started doodling this clown and

480

:

then she wrote these words next to it.

481

:

The world is dying and not

even I can smile anymore.

482

:

And this got to me more.

483

:

It still does.

484

:

I can feel myself getting, getting

a little bit emotional even

485

:

now thinking about it because

it's, this is what matters if.

486

:

If the generations that come

after us are this hopeless.

487

:

We are creating a story of our own demise

488

:

and, and you know, we are the stories

we tell ourselves about ourselves.

489

:

If we continue to get trapped telling

ourselves that we are too small to

490

:

make a difference, then we won't.

491

:

Sorry to drag it down.

492

:

Carl, you mentioned that you worked

for the Park Service at one time.

493

:

Yes.

494

:

And I assume, were you involved in

interpretation, in interpreting for

495

:

the public, engaging with the public?

496

:

I was wondering what can the

field of interpretation learn

497

:

from performance storytellers?

498

:

Because guys with the fe within, you know,

interpretation, the point here is to make

499

:

emotional and intellectual connections.

500

:

It's so performance storytelling.

501

:

I'm, you know, there's something else.

502

:

There's a different type of connection.

503

:

I, I feel when I like, listen

to your work, for example.

504

:

Yeah.

505

:

So what can, what can they learn?

506

:

And then that way if, if interpreters

can learn something from performance

507

:

storytelling, then they could reach out

to that many more people at all their

508

:

different locations, make new connections.

509

:

Yes.

510

:

In interpretation is so very,

very close to storytelling.

511

:

You know, they, they're

kind of cousins really.

512

:

Um, if I draw upon the kind of

stories I used to share when I was a

513

:

national park warden, they were about

engagement and they were about helping

514

:

people find a sense of connection.

515

:

I guess there's this invisible

boundary with interpretation that

516

:

what you say has to be the truth.

517

:

Uh, whereas in storytelling, we play a

little bit loose with the truth, you know?

518

:

Um, but with a purpose, you know?

519

:

And so I, I think that is possibly

where the distinction comes in.

520

:

I know with Nexus because Nexus relies

on the very true story of the historical

521

:

events in the Florida Everglades

over roughly a a 150 year period.

522

:

And people receive it as historical truth

and it is, but there's also conversations.

523

:

That performance that I, I recount,

which I have no idea if that was

524

:

the conversation that happened.

525

:

So it's these sort of elements within

storytelling that they add, the additional

526

:

sort of color, the additional dimension

that interpretation maybe sometimes lacks.

527

:

I say sometimes because I have been

on tours and visits where people

528

:

who are doing interpretation, you

know, they, they've got that certain.

529

:

And they are prepared to play with

their audience, with their guests.

530

:

And I think maybe, uh,

stumbling upon that word, clay.

531

:

That's the other thing with storytelling.

532

:

You are playing with your audience.

533

:

If you integrate that into interpretation,

you are a good way towards storytelling.

534

:

You know, you are not just

a guide as an interpreter.

535

:

You know, you are, you're a facilitator.

536

:

It does come down to the culture

of the organization as well.

537

:

I have to recognize that because there

are some institutions I have worked

538

:

for in the past who would probably take

you for, for, for a disciplinary if

539

:

you played loose and free with some of

the information that you are sharing.

540

:

But you know.

541

:

There's nothing wrong with

trying and experimenting.

542

:

You can always pull back, and I have

early in the new year, I'm, I probably

543

:

better not say which organization, but

there is a national wildlife charity in

544

:

the UK that have asked me to come in and

work with a new group of walk leaders

545

:

that they have to try and help them.

546

:

Develop some storytelling skills

that they can bring to their, their

547

:

walks, bring to their interpretation

so that it creates an experience.

548

:

'cause that's really what you're

trying to do with interpretation.

549

:

You want those people to leave not

just knowing stuff, but feeling stuff.

550

:

And that comes from that

sense of experience.

551

:

We've got listeners all over the

place, um, around the world and.

552

:

Nexus and you delivering it in person.

553

:

It's in a, in a limited place.

554

:

Are you taking it to Germany?

555

:

And there's, you know, and there's

other things that could be in the,

556

:

in the offering and et cetera.

557

:

But I know with the workshop

that people keep asking you

558

:

about maybe doing it online.

559

:

Um, absolutely.

560

:

Thank you.

561

:

There's a challenge.

562

:

And, and is it possible to do.

563

:

Or have you got thoughts about whether

you just stick with the in person

564

:

thing or, or have you got any thoughts?

565

:

You developing something there?

566

:

Oh, you don't have to commit

yourself, but you can.

567

:

Oh, you,

568

:

you found my pain points, Steve.

569

:

This is, this is my pain

point at the moment is.

570

:

I would love to do something

online and increasingly I feel

571

:

I need to do something online.

572

:

The challenge is that the way the fi,

the, the workshop, I call Finding Your

573

:

Nexus 'cause it's all about helping people

get to that point where they find their

574

:

nexus, their their point of connection to.

575

:

Their sense of agency.

576

:

Uh, the, the difficulty with delivering

online is that the workshop creates a

577

:

very safe environment for people to be

honest with what they're experiencing and

578

:

to be able to share that in a way that

they know there's people there for them.

579

:

And.

580

:

My dilemma is how do you create that in

an online space when you've got somebody

581

:

who's sat in Paris or California and

somebody is in a room on their own and

582

:

they've just shared with you something

that absolutely terrifies them and you.

583

:

I can't actually be in that physical

space to help give them the reassurance

584

:

that helps them work through that.

585

:

'cause I'm not a therapist and

I have to walk a very fine line

586

:

in the workshop 'cause it could

very easily tip into a place where

587

:

people are treating it as therapy.

588

:

There are difficult feelings to go

through, and it's important to you kind

589

:

of have to go through those feelings.

590

:

The grief that I mentioned at the start

of COVID for me was kind of the vital

591

:

ingredient that unlocked everything.

592

:

I don't want to take people to

the place of grief that I was

593

:

in, but at the same time until.

594

:

People can be honest with the difficult

feelings they have about the subject.

595

:

They can't move past that,

and that's my difficulty with

596

:

providing it in an online medium.

597

:

I suppose this becomes a perfect

opportunity to do a call out to

598

:

anybody out there who, who thinks

I have the answer, because thi this

599

:

is my, my dilemma at the moment.

600

:

It needs a wider audience, but

I'm not sure how to roll it out.

601

:

In an effective way online.

602

:

I think I need to restructure

the whole thing, but again, do

603

:

I lose the magic of what it is?

604

:

I don't know.

605

:

Help.

606

:

There are other projects and other, other

people we've had on the, the podcast,

607

:

the climate Fre similar things I think

they mentioned in terms of the, the, the

608

:

tension of you raise these things and, and

how do you, how do you manage them then?

609

:

I think that storytelling

is a very powerful tool that

610

:

is not taught in school.

611

:

So can you share some tips for everybody

listening to become better storyteller?

612

:

Just like, you know, some quick tips

that they can, we can use right away.

613

:

This is gonna sound like a cop out,

but it is absolutely the truth.

614

:

Start telling stories.

615

:

It is as simple as that.

616

:

I would never have stood in front

of a group of people to tell a

617

:

story if my boss hadn't told me.

618

:

That's what I was gonna do.

619

:

And the only way you become a better

storyteller is by telling stories and

620

:

also listening, because the interest,

interesting thing about storytelling

621

:

is it's not just about the telling.

622

:

You've gotta be able to absorb

from other people as well.

623

:

I think that was part of the point I

was trying to make earlier actually,

624

:

was that when you go and do an

English exam, you are writing essays.

625

:

You might be asked some questions,

but there's not really, none of

626

:

our children did a storytelling

element to their English exams and

627

:

uh, one of them did English A level.

628

:

Uh, one of my, my children is

currently studying English A

629

:

level, and it's all about reading

novels and interpreting them.

630

:

And that's where I think

that, you know, we.

631

:

As a culture, as soon as you have

books that can be passed down, that

632

:

has an influence on the culture of

storytelling, which becomes really

633

:

something that saves people's lives in

some parts of the world because they

634

:

have to tell those stories because

there's safety issues around Could be.

635

:

Um, uh, to do with the fauna

and flora of the, of the area.

636

:

Um, so I, I just, I think my fit, my, what

I was saying earlier was more about sort

637

:

of what we may be losing a little bit and,

uh, how education could be part of the

638

:

future for, uh, for, for storytelling.

639

:

Because I think otherwise

we do lose something.

640

:

I'm very happy to report that I have

had schools bring me in specifically

641

:

to work with children who are

struggling with their English,

642

:

to enthus them and to help them.

643

:

And the wonderful thing about.

644

:

Using storytelling for that, not

story writing, not story reading,

645

:

but storytelling is, its immediate.

646

:

So instead of them having to sit there and

patiently, you're, you're not, you are in

647

:

the moment and it's the innovation, you

know, to come back to the question you ask

648

:

Steve about whether the stories change.

649

:

That's when you can have real fun,

is when you get a group of kids

650

:

together and suddenly they realize

there's no rules, there's no grammar.

651

:

You know, they're not being told, oh, you

put the apostrophe in the wrong place.

652

:

It's just like, get the story out there.

653

:

Let's throw in a little white gnome

from the deepest, darkest forest.

654

:

What's his name?

655

:

You know?

656

:

And suddenly all these ideas

are just cascading and they're

657

:

bouncing off each other, and it's

a wonderful way of invigorating.

658

:

The more formalized aspect of

English to my mind, it's the best

659

:

way to go around essay writing.

660

:

Uh, a couple of times I've worked with

schools on the, um, the short story

661

:

competition at the BBC radio to do

on a regular basis, you know, where.

662

:

The children were being asked

to contribute something,

663

:

but oh, where do you start?

664

:

So I would come in and deliver a workshop

to help them throw around some ideas and

665

:

by the end of it, they can't wait to get

started writing their essays, you know?

666

:

So I understand where you are

coming from there, Rob, the slight

667

:

sort of glint, is that some, oh

no, I'm gonna qualify what I said.

668

:

I was gonna say, some schools.

669

:

Tends to be driven by teachers.

670

:

There are some teachers who will

push and push within their schools

671

:

to do it different and, and they,

they are the, the real angels

672

:

in the education system because.

673

:

I, I was a teacher for a period of time

and I know how hard the job is, uh, and I

674

:

know how hard it can be sometimes to stand

against the current and say, actually

675

:

no, for my class I want to do this.

676

:

And if the school can't pay for it, then

I'll go to the PTA and if the PTA can't

677

:

pay for it, we'll find another way.

678

:

PTA being parent teacher association.

679

:

Just in, just in case there's yes.

680

:

People going, what, what, what was that?

681

:

What does that, what does that mean?

682

:

Uh,

683

:

that, that's been really helpful as a.

684

:

Uh, it's only an introduction really

to, to the many different facets

685

:

that, that we've, we've touched on.

686

:

Um, where can people find more information

about what you're doing, the, particularly

687

:

the Nexus project and, and the workshop,

um, and how can they connect with you?

688

:

The easiest place is to go to my

website, which is a nice, easy web.

689

:

I'm very proud of the domain name.

690

:

So it's www storytelling

whale, as simple as that.

691

:

That will take you, that's Wales

as in the country, not Wales, as

692

:

in the marine mammal, I should say.

693

:

Um.

694

:

But that you'll find most

of the information there.

695

:

There's links to my socials there as well.

696

:

So I'm on Facebook, I've turned my

back on X, uh, and I'm on LinkedIn,

697

:

Instagram I'm kind of on, but

I don't use it that frequently.

698

:

Yeah, so a little, a little toe

in, in lots of little streams

699

:

of, uh, of stuff, but primarily.

700

:

Go to the website, so that's great.

701

:

I should also say that if people want

to flavor then the recent TEDx NMO

702

:

talk could do with a bit of love.

703

:

Yeah, and that's, that's a, it's

a, a nice short, short bite.

704

:

I mean, there's various bits of,

of your work and, and recordings

705

:

of you telling stories in, in

various places in various ways.

706

:

Um, but yeah, the nmo, uh, TEDx talk,

uh, is, and that's recent, isn't it?

707

:

Because that's only just been.

708

:

Released, published.

709

:

Oh, it's been a delight.

710

:

Thank you so much.

711

:

Thank you for, for sharing your heart,

uh, and your story, uh, and obviously

712

:

the, the, the passion that's in there too.

713

:

And, uh, we've, we've

really appreciated it.

714

:

You are very welcome.

715

:

So thanks ever so much.

716

:

It's been great having you.

717

:

Thank you, Carl.

718

:

It's been lovely.

719

:

Thank you.

720

:

Thank you.

721

:

Thank you.

All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for CarbonSessions
CarbonSessions
Carbon Conversations for every day, with everyone, from everywhere in the world.

Listen for free

About your host

Profile picture for Jennifer Myers Chua

Jennifer Myers Chua

When it comes to the climate, we don’t need more marketing or anxiety. We need established facts and a plan for collective action.

The climate is the fundamental issue of our time, and now we face a critical decision. Whether to be optimistic or fatalistic, whether to profess skepticism or to take action. Yet it seems we can barely agree on what is really going on, let alone what needs to be done. We urgently need facts, not opinions. Insights, not statistics. And a shift from thinking about climate change as a “me” problem to a “we” problem.

The Carbon Almanac is a once-in-a-lifetime collaboration between hundreds of writers, researchers, thinkers, and illustrators that focuses on what we know, what has come before, and what might happen next. Drawing on over 1,000 data points, the book uses cartoons, quotes, illustrations, tables, histories, and articles to lay out carbon’s impact on our food system, ocean acidity, agriculture, energy, biodiversity, extreme weather events, the economy, human health, and best and worst-case scenarios. Visually engaging and built to share, The Carbon Almanac is the definitive source for facts and the basis for a global movement to fight climate change.

This isn’t what the oil companies, marketers, activists, or politicians want you to believe. This is what’s really happening, right now. Our planet is in trouble, and no one concerned group, corporation, country, or hemisphere can address this on its own. Self-interest only increases the problem. We are in this together. And it’s not too late to for concerted, collective action for change.