Episode 152

Trying to Understand Net Zero, Offsetting, Carbon Capture and Storage

Episode Summary: In this CarbonSessions episode, hosts Leekei, Jenn, Kristina, and Olabanji dive into the intricacies of 'net zero,' a term increasingly used by governments and companies. 

But what does it genuinely mean? Does it equate to offsetting? And importantly, how does it contribute to addressing the climate crisis?

Inspired by a video from science communicator and astrophysicist Sabine Hossenfelder, Leekei shares her insights, shedding light on the complexities of these climate-related concepts. 

The episode reveals that a lack of understanding can leave us susceptible to greenwashing and manipulation in climate discourse, highlighting the importance of clarity and comprehension in these critical conversations.

To watch Sabine Hossenfelder video The Net Zero Myth. Why Reaching our Climate Goals is Virtually Impossible

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

You can find out more on page 30 of the Carbon Almanac and on the website you can tap the footnotes link and type in 999.

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Jenn Swanson, Kristina Horning and Olabanji Stephen.

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France. 

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and community Connector, helping people help themselves. 

Kristina has a background in architecture and engineering. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria, he’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Transcript
Speaker:

Hi, I'm Christina.

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I'm from Prague.

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Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

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Hi, I'm Oladunji, and I'm from Nigeria.

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Hello, I'm Liki, and I live in Paris.

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Hi, I'm Brian, and I'm from New York.

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Welcome to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with

carbon conversations for every day, with

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everyone, from everywhere in the world.

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In our conversations, we share ideas,

perspectives, questions, and things we

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can actually do to make a difference.

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So don't be shy and join our Carbon

Sessions, because it's not too late.

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Hi, it's Nikki.

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Hi, this is Christina.

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Hi, this is Jen.

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What about if we share, discuss what

we know we've heard about net zero?

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and we can just be crazy, and , not

be afraid of not knowing, because it's

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actually something very technical,

and I so , let's play it dumb to

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start with, and then let's try to

be a little bit serious at the end.

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Alright?

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Okay.

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Okay.

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I'm ready.

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Okay.

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Perfect.

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Well, I don't have to play though.

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I don't have a clue.

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What is net zero.

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Don't have to play it at all.

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And I, it sounds so simple.

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Net zero.

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Okay.

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There's something, uh,

trying to reach something.

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, but what it And how can we reach

nothing if we have a lot of stuff?

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It's confusing!

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Okay, it's more, for me it's more, okay,

going to infinity instead of to net zero.

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But please educate me.

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But you've heard about people

talking about net zero.

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Right, Christina.

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Yeah, I heard about it, but I

listened to this one video and,

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uh, I got even more confused, so.

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Well, yeah, but you know, in which

context have you heard about net zero?

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Uh, climate change?

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Yeah, but what kind of setting?

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Is it from people, companies,

government, schools?

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Yeah, it's from outside.

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It's from, uh, newspapers and, uh.

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Reporters talk about it,

so it's, uh, it's all over.

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It's almost like this new phrase.

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new, uh, fashionable thing to talk about.

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Yeah, you mentioned, um, a

permaculture conference you will

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attend, or you have attended.

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Yeah, I am right permaculture

conference in Prague.

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And, uh, when I mentioned Carbon

Almanac, and there is another book,

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um, About climate change, people

got really mad and really angry

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and said, It doesn't make sense.

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They're just taking one little thing and

they're not connecting to the reality.

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And they think if they can build

electric cars and buy more electric

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cars, it's going to solve everything.

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So that's their view of it.

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I think it's the disconnection

between the groups.

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So, maybe you guys can, uh,

clarify net zero and tomorrow I

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can go in and say, okay, now I

know everything about net zero.

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We can connect.

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. I think in the climate change and

environmental, um, discourse, there

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are a lot of things, and uh, it's

real difficult , for us to make

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the different connections, yeah.

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I've been hearing about it.

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Um, our, our government has, and Canada

has a plan to be net zero by:

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Um, so they passed a law, but, you know,

and then you see when you order, when

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you order things, when you order, uh,

an airplane ticket or you order, you

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know, there's a company I order, um,

sustainable clothing from, and there's

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always something you can add that's

a carbon offset, which, So, Is what I

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assume, uh, the idea is that you're paying

money to, to them so that they then plant

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trees or do something different that would

then cancel out the carbon that's being

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used because you're shipping clothing

or you're getting on a plane and it's.

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It kind of makes me wonder, is that real?

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Is the money actually going to,

you know, like what's happening?

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And I'm a little suspicious of that,

but I think for me, what I understand

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net zero to be is, is basically a

balancing out of, um, Of doing good

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things for the environment to offset

all the bad things we're doing.

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But like Christina said, we've

been doing bad things for decades.

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So how on earth are we going to do this?

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That's, that's the only, that's all I got.

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Yeah.

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That makes sense.

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I have no idea if that's it at all.

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Me too, to be honest.

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If I were to add to that, it would

be like, I made carbon, which is

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like carbon in, and then take it out.

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Which is basically carbon out such that

the amount of carbon you're emitting

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is You're taking that much out of the

atmosphere as well And so that way we're

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sort of at a balance of no carbon at

all which is which is It's cool, but

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it's ambitious It's very very ambitious

and I think the paris agreement also

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agreed Had this whole plan that it'll

World will be at midsummer by:

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So I, what I understood from the video

we watched was it's not as much the

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carbon, but there are more other worse

things in the air people are putting in.

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So are we concentrating only

on one thing because it feels

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like we can influence this?

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Yeah.

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Uh, yes.

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Well, um, I've been, I've heard about

net zero a lot, , like you, and, um,

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this is actually one of the, um, it

is one of the goal, um, something that

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we could use to measure a goal, , the,

this is a goal we can use to measure

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our progress in order to achieve

the, um,:

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goal

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Um, there's a, there's actually in the

carbon almanac, if you remember, there's

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a page on net zero and it's a CISO.

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And um, so on one side of the

CISO, you have, um, the factories.

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And, uh, also, uh, cut down trees and

on the other side, you have forests

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and I think a little bit of ocean.

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And so the illustration of that is that,

um, net zero is achieved when those two

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sides of the seesaw are balanced out.

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So that's great, right?

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That's a very simple, um,

definition of net zero.

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Yeah.

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But the thing is that if you notice

that, um, yeah, it's, it's very easy

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to understand as a concept, but.

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There was no definition and when Ola

Benji suggested this topic, I started

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looking for researching on this topic.

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And luckily I found a video

from one of my favorite science

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communicator on precisely net zero.

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And I was so happy to, to, um, that she

published this video exactly this week.

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And um, so I've learned a lot of things.

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And to tell you the truth.

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I watched it a couple of times, like

three, four times, and I took some notes.

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So I think I understand a little bit more,

but, um, yeah, let's, let's give it a go.

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And, um, let me try to explain it to

you and feel free to ask me questions.

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I'll try to find the answers or I'm

sure that we'll figure out because

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it's like everything, you know, we

just need to learn and try to, to

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research and try to understand it.

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Bye.

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So, net zero.

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So this um, this is a, this is

a little video from a YouTube

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channel from a scientist.

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I think she's a physicist,

astrophysicist or something.

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It's how I came across her

channel actually, because I'm

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interested in astrophysics.

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hEr name is Sabine Hosenfelder,

I think, and she's from Germany.

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So she started explaining

what net zero is.

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So she showed us a definition from the

International Standard Organization,

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which is ISO, that defined in 2022

net zero as the condition in which

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human caused residual greenhouse gas

emissions are balanced by human led

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removals over a specified period.

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And within , specified boundaries.

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, So basically, this is, again, uh,

again, the, you know, this illustration

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is a scale, things are balanced out.

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But, um, the thing that you would

notice is that, Net zero doesn't

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mention temperature in its definition.

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And the thing is that we are focusing,

we need to focus on when we talk about

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net zero to focus on the level of carbon

dioxide in the atmosphere at the time

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we're starting talking about net zero,

because there's a big difference as

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she explained in this video between,

uh, things, , 400 billion tons of CO2

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between this level of concentration.

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and 800 billion in the consequences

on climate change and then temperature

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increase will be different.

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So this is the first thing.

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The second thing is that net zero is

something that is quite imperfect because,

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um, net zero focuses on what is.

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, produced and consumed by, I mean, um, add

and remove in the atmosphere from humans,

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but it doesn't take into account the

natural disasters and natural phenomenon

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and natural disasters like, you know, uh,

wildfires or, um, the volcano eruptions.

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All this kind of natural phenomenon

are very difficult to predict.

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So, therefore, it's difficult to

add in the calculation of net zero.

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Um, the other thing is that, , you know,

um, , she also, she also talks about

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aerosols level and aerosols level, it's

something that, again, it's linked to,

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, to natural phenomena, phenomena that are

difficult to, quantify, and not quantify,

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sorry, it's difficult to predict.

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So yes, so there's this thing.

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And the other thing is that net zero

is only, we only talk about emissions.

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And so we're not talking about how

to keep the temperature in check.

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Right?

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Are you still with me?

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I could ask.

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So as I understand now, and

let me know if it's wrong.

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That the net zero means whatever

we put out, we should take care of.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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Um, and, and from what you're saying,

Nikki, it's not just what we put out.

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It's everything that is being put

out, so to say, um, by every means,

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including like the wildfires.

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No, no, this is not what

I, I was trying to say.

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Um, net zero is focused on human

induced, um, human led emission.

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Emissions and removal.

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And so what I'm trying to explain is

that it's, um, this, it's difficult to

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quantify, to predict the nature led.

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In and out from carbon emissions.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Sounds great.

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So if we dirty the dishes,

we need to wash them again.

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That's precisely that.

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Yes.

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But then how do we link

it to temperature again?

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So the link with the temperature rise

is that in order to meet the Paris

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Agreement targets, We need to pick

emissions by:

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significantly because currently we are

emitting about 55 billion tons of carbon

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dioxide every year with the global

temperature rises that is already at 1.

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1 degree.

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And in order to keep them the level

that we were pledged to to keep

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during the Paris Agreement, Which

is to keep the global temperature

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rise well below two, two degree.

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Which is 1.5, we need to keep our

carbon budget of about 400 to 800

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billion tons of CO2 until 2050.

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And knowing that we have already

emitting about 55 tons per year.

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And right now that it's not working.

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So, so my, my understanding is, and

from, from the resource that you

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shared as well, so my understanding

is we have to remove 1 billion ton.

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Each year by 2030 And then by 2050 We

have to start to remove 5 billion tons

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each year Which is a huge divide from what

we're currently doing, which is about 2.

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3 million tons.

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And so the gap is Not wide

because why doesn't cut it?

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That's like that's like

ocean wide between 2.

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3 million tons and One billion ton that

we should actually be doing realistically

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to be able to achieve net zero.

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And so, yeah, yeah, it's pretty ambitious.

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Hopefully not too ambitious.

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Actually, Benji, I didn't do the

exact, the exact maps, but it

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seems that it is very ambitious.

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It's basically, uh, what this figure

suggests is that, , Aiming for net

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zero, it's not enough because we

have already tapped in so much in our

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carbon budget that if we keep that

level, it will be very, very difficult

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to reduce the temperature rise.

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And so what we need to do is to remove,

to remove carbon from the atmosphere.

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This is the idea.

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And this is what, um, what, you know, Jen

was saying at the beginning that It's, uh,

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you know, when you buy something, you can

pay a little extra to remove the carbon.

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This is upsetting.

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This is actually, uh, paying

and removing what you will emit.

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But it's not removing.

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Removing is really removing

from the atmosphere what's the

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extra that we need to remove.

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So, but how do we know when we pay the

money that it's actually happening?

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That's my question.

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And I wonder if others are

suspicious or if it's just me.

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No, I think, I think that when you pay

the money, it might probably offset.

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So it's neutral.

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But it's not helping you or

your company achieve net zero.

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You know what I mean?

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Is that it might balance out the purchases

you've made, but it will not remove

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additional carbon from the atmosphere.

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Therefore, it's probably

doesn't contribute to net zero,

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what this lady is trying to explain is

that, uh, there's a big difference between

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carbon offsetting and carbon removal.

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What a lot of people get confused about

is, , uh, when they think that, oh,

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well, um, I'm doing an carbon offsetting.

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This will help me remove and

fight against climate change.

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The problem is that we've gone too far.

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An excess of what we produce.

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We need to remove all this

carbon from the atmosphere.

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So that is the, that is something that's

difficult to, to understand, to get is

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that, you know, there's a difference

between offsetting and removal.

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This is what I'm trying to explain.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I agree with Jen.

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What do they do with that money they

officially take for that offset?

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Because, as I heard many times, the

removal, carbon removal from the

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atmosphere, uh, There are a lot of

options to do that, and a lot of

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them are not really doing the net

zero because they're kind of removing

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the carbon, but putting more carbon

into atmosphere by removing it.

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This is something we need to, to stop

getting, stop thinking that carbon

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offsetting doesn't lead to Net zero.

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I think this is, um, this one thing

we need to, to remember from this

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conversation is that carbon offsetting

is really different from Achieving net

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zero because carbon offsetting helps you

balance out the scale just on one thing.

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But the problem is so big, there's

so much carbon in the atmosphere

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that we need to do more and

remove this from the atmosphere.

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Oh yeah, so it'll be, if I were to make

an illustration, it'll be like, there's

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maybe 20 jellies in a bar and you, you

contribute one to it, but then you make

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an effort to remove the one that you

contribute to it, but there's still 20.

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So if you contribute one, it

makes it 21, but you offset

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the one that you contribute.

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But it's still 20 there.

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So contributing and offsetting what

you contribute does not necessarily

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help achieve the entire removal of all.

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Of the jellies in the bar.

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So you've, you've got to

like do more than offsets.

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Yeah.

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I love that.

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I think, I think everybody

understand Candace.

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Yeah.

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So, so here's the question.

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Do does changing our habits to stop

making it in the first place and

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then, and then contributing to removal

do more than carbon offsetting?

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I assume so, but I don't know

how we can contribute to carbon

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removal except, except because it's.

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Currently, we are, I mean, not

we, us, but the Earth is doing its

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carbon removal job, but it's not

human induced, it's nature induced.

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So plants, trees, removes

carbon from the atmosphere.

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So yeah, what we can do is

to plant more trees, yes.

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Yeah.

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And more gardens.

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I guess with net zero, um, it's,

it's going to have to be like an

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all hands on deck kind of situation.

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Because first of all, you have to

make sure that if you're producing

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more carbon, you're offsetting it.

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So that's rule number one.

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If you produce more,

make sure you offset it.

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So don't contribute more

to what's already there.

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So I've said it first of all, and

then when you've offset it, try to

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remove an extra from what is there.

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So you can remove an extra by not

producing at all and let the earth

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do the work of removing the existing

carbon, or you can make effort with

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certain technologies that are available

to remove, um, carbon in the atmosphere.

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So, yeah, I think it's gotta

be those things, but at least

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don't add to it to start with.

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But currently, currently the only

system that is doing its job in

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carbon removal, really, it's nature.

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Um, there are technologies out there,

but, yeah, there are technologies out

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there, but they are not widely used,

you know, the thing that we call carbon

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capture for the purpose of removal.

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They're not widely used.

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Yeah.

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And it doesn't really solve

the problem because it just

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kind of delays it, I guess.

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Because it's like you capture

the carbon, but it's still here.

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So they dig the ground and put the

carbon in the ground, but at some point

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it's going to have to either be used

for something or pollute or something.

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But carbon capture is, it's not, um.

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No, well, carbon capture and storage.

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This isn't one.

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Carbon capture and storage.

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So we.

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Capture them, and trap them, and

keep them, so And store them.

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Well, we're not doing enough of it.

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But how do, so what

happens when we store them?

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Because that, yeah, but is

that the end of the cycle?

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The storage?

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So if we store it, is it

like, yeah, we got it.

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It's not going anywhere ever again.

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Well, I believe that we need to

store them for the duration that,

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you know, the temperature stops.

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rising.

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So we need to store them because

this carbon has been stored.

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And the problem is that we've digged out,

we've digged, we've, we've digged big

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holes on the soil and get all this carbon

from extracted all this oil and gas.

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And this is how we emit carbon.

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So we need to do it reverse.

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So capture them and dig them

for very, very, very long time.

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Yeah, that sounds great.

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There is one thing that, uh, I think

that charcoal, people talk about,

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uh, adding charcoal to their garden.

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And I think when they, that,

that might be one of the things.

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As a charcoal fertilizer or

a charcoal for the garden.

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Yeah, I think if you wanna do

that, you need to look it up.

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I'm not a garden, I have no idea.

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Yeah, I know.

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The charcoal act, activated charcoal

for the plants is really good

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and it, uh, puts, uh, carbon into

the soil and helps the plants.

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But I wonder if they, when they make it.

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Is it, uh, using up, uh,

the carbon from atmosphere?

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That'll be interesting.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, it's extracted, right?

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It's mined.

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Yeah.

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Oh, activated charcoal

is made out of plant.

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At least that's what I think.

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I'll look it up.

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But I think to go back to your

question, Jen, I think, you know, what

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we can do in, individually to help

the, um, the carbon removal effort

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is to Advocate for carbon removal.

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First, explain the difference between

, carbon offsetting and carbon removal.

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And sometimes it might be very

misleading and make you think that,

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Oh, you're helping the planet.

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No, it helps you stop polluting it.

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It helps you stop increasing,

increasing , the temperature.

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That's it.

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Because, \ , what we really

need to do is carbon removal.

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So first Explain that.

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Second is that, you know, um, , advocate

and also ask your, I don't know, your

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municipalities, I don't know if it works,

but your governments to, to really have

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a carbon removal policy strategies.

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Implemented.

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So, yeah, to get more serious,

it's probably all good.

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It's probably all good.

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Like do it all.

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Yeah, we need everything.

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I think one of the greatest thing

we can do to achieve net zero is be

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better at figuring out greenwashing.

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Right.

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So if we can get To stop greenwashing

that would be very very good because

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there are some net zero goals and

Policies that are also greenwashing.

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It's like hey, we want to do net

zero This is like the plan and stuff,

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but they ain't doing none of that.

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:

So We probably should you know consider

um, whoever is in position to like

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If you find out where there might be

greenwashing going on It might be it

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might be a great time to start to police

that So to say for lack of a better

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word, I think policing might be strong,

but yeah, probably policing Greenwashing

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because then we can make sure that the

and you know It's like those who greenwash

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are the ones that in quotes might have

something to lose So chances are they

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are heavy emitters of carbon and so if

they're greenwashing then That's something

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to kind of check and make sure that

Um, that it's not, it doesn't continue.

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And if you don't know what greenwashing

is, listen to our last episode.

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Yeah.

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:

Yeah.

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This discussion on net zero really

illustrates the fact that we need to get

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:

more education and more understanding

of the climate conversations, everything

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:

that is involved in the discussions

around the environment and climate change.

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:

Because, uh, if we don't understand it.

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We, it's so easy to be, to get fooled.

404

:

Okay, okay.

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:

Liki, you're probably the one with the

most knowledge on net zero here, now,

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:

and I'm gonna ask you one question.

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Do you think that net

zero is possible at all?

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Do you think we can, do you

think we can do net zero?

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I guess, yes, we could, but

we really need to hurry up and

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:

decide this is what we want.

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:

Like, we as in.

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:

I think it's possible, but I'm not a

scientist, but from what I read, watched,

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:

listened to, I gathered that it is

possible, but we really, really, really

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:

need to make the decision like right now.

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:

And I just, I just want to throw

something into there, caution, because

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:

there are big now industries talking

about capture, CO2 capture from the air.

417

:

And, uh, there is one direct air

capture using high powered fans.

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:

Air is drawn into a processing

facility where the CO2 is separated

419

:

through a series of chemical

reactions and stored underground.

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:

I don't want more chemistry in the

air and in the ground and in the soil.

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:

It doesn't sound, focusing and just

removing it, it doesn't sound safe.

422

:

Um, well, okay, this is, this is

a discussion I always have with

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:

my chemistry students because I

coach and teach chemistry students

424

:

and, um, chemistry is everywhere.

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:

This is something you would

need to get straight about.

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:

Chemistry is everywhere.

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:

Cooking is chemistry, you know, um,

cooking is chemistry, baking is chemistry.

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:

It's.

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:

It's a transformation of molecules.

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:

So chemistry is everywhere.

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:

Chemistry was everywhere in Czech

Republic in a way that it killed

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:

rivers and gave cancer to people.

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:

So I'm scared of that chemistry,

the chemicals that destroy stuff.

434

:

And I think that I'm worried that not

only they use a lot of energy for this

435

:

process, but also if they use chemicals.

436

:

That are not safe, um, just

worried about it a little bit.

437

:

Yeah, I understand what you're

referring to is bad chemistry.

438

:

Uh, but chemistry is, uh,

it's a, it's reaction.

439

:

It's science.

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:

So it's everywhere.

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:

Everywhere.

442

:

Well, this is interesting.

443

:

This has been an interesting conversation.

444

:

I need to, uh, I need to learn more.

445

:

Yeah.

446

:

So if you have a chance to, to spend

some time at the video that I'm going

447

:

to put in the show notes because I'm

going to watch it again and again and.

448

:

Try to educate myself more because, um, I

think my understanding of, I think you are

449

:

watching this video helped me understand

a little bit about, um, net zero, but

450

:

there's so much I still need to learn.

451

:

Yeah.

452

:

It's an emotional thing, connecting

all these dots to one simple net zero.

453

:

Yeah.

454

:

Well, that's it, everyone, on

today's episode of Net Zero,

455

:

sorry, I mean, Carbon Sessions.

456

:

But yeah.

457

:

We're, we're done with net zero for today.

458

:

We're, we're, we're definitely done.

459

:

Yeah, there will be an exam

and test next time, okay?

460

:

End up on a positive note somehow.

461

:

Thank you.

462

:

Bye.

463

:

I love it.

464

:

Bye.

465

:

Bye.

466

:

Bye.

467

:

You've been listening to Carbon

Sessions, a podcast with carbon

468

:

conversations for every day with

everyone from everywhere in the world.

469

:

We'd love you to join the Carbon

Sessions so you too can share your

470

:

perspectives from wherever you are.

471

:

This is a great way for our community

to learn from your ideas and

472

:

experiences, connect, and take action.

473

:

If you want to add your voice to the

conversation, go to thecarbonalmanac.

474

:

org slash podcast.

475

:

And sign up to be part

of a future episode.

476

:

This podcast is also part of

the Carbon Almanac Network.

477

:

For more information, to sign up for

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478

:

and to order your copy of the Carbon

Almanac, go to thecarbonalmanac.

479

:

org.

480

:

Be sure to subscribe and join

us here again, as together

481

:

we can change the world.

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Carbon Almanac

When it comes to the climate, we don’t need more marketing or anxiety. We need established facts and a plan for collective action.

The climate is the fundamental issue of our time, and now we face a critical decision. Whether to be optimistic or fatalistic, whether to profess skepticism or to take action. Yet it seems we can barely agree on what is really going on, let alone what needs to be done. We urgently need facts, not opinions. Insights, not statistics. And a shift from thinking about climate change as a “me” problem to a “we” problem.

The Carbon Almanac is a once-in-a-lifetime collaboration between hundreds of writers, researchers, thinkers, and illustrators that focuses on what we know, what has come before, and what might happen next. Drawing on over 1,000 data points, the book uses cartoons, quotes, illustrations, tables, histories, and articles to lay out carbon’s impact on our food system, ocean acidity, agriculture, energy, biodiversity, extreme weather events, the economy, human health, and best and worst-case scenarios. Visually engaging and built to share, The Carbon Almanac is the definitive source for facts and the basis for a global movement to fight climate change.

This isn’t what the oil companies, marketers, activists, or politicians want you to believe. This is what’s really happening, right now. Our planet is in trouble, and no one concerned group, corporation, country, or hemisphere can address this on its own. Self-interest only increases the problem. We are in this together. And it’s not too late to for concerted, collective action for change.