Episode 189

[FOCUS] Fusion and Possibilities for A Brighter Future

Episode Summary: This is a segment from a previous episode in which Jenn Swanson, Brian Tormey and Leekei Tang talk about a new milestone on the road to nuclear fusion

In December 2022, the nuclear fusion research effort reached a major breakthrough whereby the reaction generated more energy than it consumed (ignition)

After sharing their understanding of the subject and why this news set a milestone for a future of clean energy, Jenn, Leekei and Brian toyed with various scenarios of possible tomorrows where energy is in abundance.

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac, visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

article in Nature.com US nuclear-fusion lab enters new era: achieving ‘ignition’ over and over

You can find out more on page 186 of the Carbon Almanac and on the website you can tap the footnotes link and type in 094

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From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and Community Connector, helping people help themselves.  

Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US. 

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France.  

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Transcript
Speaker:

and today we are talking about No Clear Fu

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Okay, we are recording this

episode in, in December.

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This is the second week of December,

and this episode will probably be

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realized in January, but something,

something major broke the news last week.

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This week, actually two days ago.

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Tell us more the, the real

definition of a newsflash . Right.

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Um, well, I think, you

know, it's exciting.

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The, um, the, you know, some US

scientists, although I will give a

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quick shout out here, some people have

commented, noted that there's a number of

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groups in Europe also working, and we're

near this kind of, uh, milestone as well.

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But maybe the war in Ukraine

slowed down some of their progress.

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But for the moment, uh,

here in December, some US.

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Have achieved what's called ignition in a,

in a fusion reaction, um, which, and then

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sort of overcome this ignition barrier.

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We'll come back and dive a little bit

into fusion, but it sort of means that

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they've produced more energy than it took

to create that amount of energy creation.

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Um, and so that's a, a

super exciting milestone,

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I've listened to podcast hats only

four or five months ago that were

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all about fusion, and it was like,

well, it's always only 10 years away

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before we're gonna achieve this.

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You know, crossing this ignition

energy barrier where we're actually

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drawing more power out of the

reaction than what into creating the.

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but here we are in December of 2022

and we've crossed that barrier.

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Um, and it's super duper exciting

and I think holds, you know, a lot of

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exciting stuff for us to chat about here.

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Um, you know, I guess I would turn and

ask, uh, leaky, you know, you, you were

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sharing and sort of talking a little bit

about the amount of energy on any one

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country driven by different sources of.

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And, you know, fusion is not one

that's driving for any country

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right now, but something somewhat

similar to fusion Nuclear power.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Is is dominant in your country, correct?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I, well as you know, um, in France

and in France, , , the source of

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energy is many nuclear because.

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Um, there was, um, crisis,

the oil crisis in seven in

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the seventies and, um, and the

government decided to, to, develop.

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The, um, nuclear energy sector.

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There was this very famous

phrase, uh, that says

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which means in France we have no

oil, but we have lots of ideas.

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And the idea was to switch

everything , uh, to nuclear power.

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And so, I think before, , all the,

uh, the, you know, the problems

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in Japan, , France was leading,

the nuclear energy sector.

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And, um, I think that 70% of,

of energy comes from nuclear,

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um, nuclear plants in front.

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It used to, um, not anymore

because um, a lot of them are

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been, , under repair these days.

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, but this is something that we've been

using for a while and um, and I know

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that's very controversial, . It's a

very controversial topic, but so far we

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didn't have any problem in France and.

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I get very excited about, the fusion, uh,

the nuclear fusion power, , as opposed to

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fishing, which is when you get the energy,

when, when you separate the atoms, right?

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So this is the energy

that is, uh, used today.

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And the problem of it is

that it creates, Love waste.

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No, it creates waste.

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No, I shouldn't say a love waste.

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It creates waste and it's difficult

because it's potent for a long time.

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And, um, there are accents, whereas

the, , energy that comes from

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fusion, , is the energy that's that

powers the sun and this is the type

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of energy that comes from, , Fusion.

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So from the atoms melting, , and it's

safer and um, and it's seems to be

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an incredible, um, source of energy

that is, um, that does not, em,

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it's common, so it's clean energy.

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So there was a lot of

hope, but, , as you said.

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Um, yeah, we are maybe 10 years away.

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, but, you know, I work a lot with, , um,

engineering students and they told me that

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this the joke and let me pull the joke,

uh, among physicists, uh, lemme see, think

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it's, um, yeah, there's a joke that says,

oh, nuclear fusion energy is 20 years.

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and it will always be

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Yeah.

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This is a joke because actually

the technology, um, and

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again, I'm not a physicist.

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I'm not a scientist at all, but

I know that this type of energy

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existed, um, since the fifties.

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But basically it comes from a bomb.

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, it's a very, very powerful bomb.

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It's called, um, um, H bomb or it's a

hydrogen bomb, which is like, I don't

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know how many times more pot than it is,

uh, as compared to, , the atomic bomb,

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but it's really, really, really bad.

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But then we saw the potential

in transforming it and using it,

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this type of, this technology

and to generate energy and, and

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to plug it to, into our grid.

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But there are of problems that

needs to be solved before that.

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So that's why it took so long.

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Agreed.

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I was gonna say, you know, just commenting

back on the beginning part of your,

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uh, commentary that leaky, I, you know,

I'm here in the United States in New

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York and I actually live near a nuclear

power plant that is in the process as

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many are in other parts of the world

of actually being decommissioned and

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over concerns of their potential, you

know, fallout kind of situation as it

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relates to, you know, systems failure.

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and so many around the world of

this, what is otherwise a very clean

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type of energy source that doesn't

contribute to our, our sort of the,

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the imbalance in our carbon cycle.

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Many nuclear power plants are

actually being decommissioned out of

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concerns over their age, their safety

protocols, those kind of things.

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And I live in an area where, you know,

my energy now is this power plant

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becomes decommissioned because we

don't yet have a fusion replacement.

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Now that energy that I otherwise

would be consuming and the people

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in the local area, including New

York City, would be consuming.

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You're now gonna come from other

plants that might be natural

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gas powered or coal tower.

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you know, maybe a little bit of hydro,

maybe a little bit of solar, a little

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bit of wind, but, but they all have,

those have other sort of negative

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impacts into this carbon cycle imbalance.

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And it's gonna actually have an

impact as well to the cost, right?

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The, the, because the nuclear is actually

was already built and very cost efficient.

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it's actually gonna

raise the electrics rate.

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Now I happen to have a full solar

array, so we're self-powered in

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my house, but most people aren't.

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And so it's interesting, I think

one of the conversations around

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fusion comes back to the same thing.

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If you compare the different sources

of energy out there in the marketplace,

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um, the cost to produce a kilowatt

hour used as a standard measuring

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thing, you know, varies across these d.

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Technology, nuclear, coal, natural

gas fired, hydro wind, solar, and

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fusion Hold potential because as you

mentioned, the, the, the ingredients

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that go into making fusion work are

yeah, readily, abundantly available.

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And don't create this, this sort of

like, um, waste material that has to

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be dealt with, uh, like, uh, depleted

uranium done and both kind of.

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Yes.

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And so it's readily available materials

and if we can get this equation right, or

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if this is the great hope is if we can get

this balance right, where less energy goes

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in, you know, two, yeah, megajoules go in

and we get three megajoules of energy out.

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Well then that can be the sort of

self-fulfilling like that and then

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helps start powering all the rest of it.

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But for right now, some of

the commentary and have been.

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You know, on this discovery as well,

for right now, we actually have

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an amazing source of fusion power.

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And it's actually our sun.

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Our sun is producing fusion

power every single day.

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I mean, today for me, it's very rainy and

wet and I don't see much of the fusion

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power, but it's, but it's producing

all this fusion power there in the

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sun, which we receive a solar energy.

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Um, and so I think there's

a, a little bit of a question

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of like, what's gonna happen?

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With fusion, when, when does it come into

play and become a cost affordable thing?

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And does it re, does, does it mean

that we need to not be worried

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about our source of energy and our,

our carbon cycle imbalance now?

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And I turned, Jim, do you

have thoughts on this?

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Yeah, I was just, uh, doing

a little research on, on what

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was happening where I am.

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I'm in Canada, I'm in Western

Canada, in British Columbia.

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And it seems that there were, there are

about 22 nuclear power reactors in Canada,

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but only 19 of them are working, and most

of them are in Ontario, which is, uh,

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is more central, uh, eastern central.

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Um, there are the one in Quebec decided

to shut down about 10 years ago because

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of the same kinds of things that we

had talked about, um, about safety and.

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And efficiency, and I know that here in

British Columbia we have a lot of water.

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And there, uh, there's big argument

going on that's been going on for years.

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Um, our government decided to purchase

a, um, a pipeline, which caused a lot of

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controversy and there are protests and

there are all sorts of things going on.

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Um, we've got a, a big dam that's

being constructed in the north.

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Called the Site C Dam.

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Um, and, uh, and the idea is

to dam a very powerful river,

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uh, for hydroelectric power.

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Um, so there's a lot of, there's a

lot of power discussions and, and

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so this, this caused me a bit of

hope, , especially given the, the

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reduction of carbon like no carbon.

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And the possibility that if we could

do what we did with the pandemic

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and everybody jump on board and try

and get this pushed farther ahead,

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you know, it seems to be like when

there's an urgent matter, like the

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pandemic, sorry, that's Charlie shaking.

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Um, like the pandemic where

every scientist focused

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their energy and their money.

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If we could all, everyone,

scientists everywhere Yeah.

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Focus their energy and their money on

this, then, then there's real hope Yeah.

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For, for reducing our carbon and, and

giving energy to everyone and Wow.

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You know, Jen, there was a, uh,

a great little piece I, I read

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on the fundraising in 2022.

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Uh, as it relates to, there were 33 main

companies that were sort of raising funds

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and focusing on fusion of meaningful

sides and, and fundraising scale.

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And the amount that was fundraised was

a fraction of the, I think it was in

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total $3 billion, if I recall correctly,

but I could be slightly wrong on that.

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Don't quote me.

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But I do recall that it was a

fraction, like less than 10%.

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Of the same amount of money raised for,

uh, companies focusing on addressing

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like short-term delivery, like delivering

restaurant food to your door and short

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and delivering packages to your door, and

like technology around like, Uber Eats.

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I don't know if you have these where

you are, but things like Uber Eat

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or GrubHub or those things, like

much more money, more than 10 times

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money was raised for those services

in:

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But this, this, this big

milestone might change that we

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may see a change in the future.

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So I'm, I'm hopeful.

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That things do go in the direction

that they're more funding dollars

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resources, you know, federal for,

you know, every country, you know,

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dollars are allocated towards.

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And therewith with the money goes the time

and energy from scientists and engineers.

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I, I hope it does go that way.

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Yeah.

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Uh, and I, I wanna go back to, um,

the urgency that you mentioned, Jen.

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I actually, I said something that was

not totally right because when I said,

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oh yeah, well, in France, we, in Europe,

we've been working on this topic for

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long and, uh, it's been slowed down

because of the war of Ukraine, which

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is partly true, but not totally true

because, um, As you, as you mentioned,

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Brian, there are different ways of,

different ways of, um, of, getting the

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potential of the, uh, nuclear fusion.

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And, uh, so it's true for one,

, project, which is laser based, uh,

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which is based in France, in bau.

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And, um, they were, they were waiting

for like, Still delivery to, to

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work on the, on the laser thing.

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But then there's another project

which is, and you probably have

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heard of it because it's this

international project, which is called.

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Which stands for, hang on just one minute.

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Um, stands for International

Thermonuclear Experimental Rector.

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And this is a project, it's an

international product and it has

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European Union, China, us, Russia, India.

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So a lot of countries are involved in this

project and they're building a new recor.

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And this new rector is based somewhere.

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Okay.

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Somewhere in.

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And, um, and, um, the test should start

some, the test test should start sometime

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in, uh, it gets your dog Very excited.

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Wasn't mine, not very excited.

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No.

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So it, the Rakuten, uh, was

supposed to start, uh, being oper

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to start operating in 20 27, 25.

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And, um, because of the urgency, and

it, because it's an international

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project, there was a lot, um, of fear,

, because, um, Russia is part of this

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project and, uh, this year, uh, Russia.

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Has, um, um, is um, is supposed to

deliver one of the magnets, one of

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the six magnet for this project.

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A big, very, very big magnet because

this is another technology that uses

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magnet and actually, , because there's a

urgency and despite the worst situ still

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delivered this magnet to this project.

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So I think this kind

of urgency goes beyond.

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The worst situation.

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So yeah.

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Yeah.

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I, yeah, I think this is

this, uh, this is great.

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That's great to hear that.

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Leave me a good moment.

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Leaky, to talk for a, a second

about the different kinds of, of

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technical approaches to fusion.

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because, you know, and again, I'm also

not a scientist, physicist, engineer, or

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expert in this, as none of us on this, uh,

podcast are, but it is interesting because

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the, the, the it a r project you're

referring to is, is following this method.

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Referred to as Tomac, where they're

these really big magnetic, um, uh,

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components that create this sort of donut

shaped field, the plasma, and moving

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around at super fast speed constrained

by the magnet and these Tomac magnet,

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these big things that Russia just

delivered, one of which is great to hear.

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This newest, um, uh, breakthrough that

just happened, you know, for us this

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week here in December, um, out at the

Lawrence Livermore Labs, um, which

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I have to have a quick shout out.

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I, it just dawned on me.

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I actually have a coworker who

works at Lawrence Livermore,

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so I've gotta call him.

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He now works there.

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He worked for me many years ago.

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Um, uh, not on this project, on, on other

things, but, but, so the approach they

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did was a different kind of approach

where they had all these lasers, 192

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different lasers all focused, and

they do use magnets to create some

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magnetic field around it and create

the precision, but it's not the same

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as the Tomac project where they focus

all these lasers at this little seed.

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Um, and sort of like create all this

pressure because all the lasers hit

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all at just the right second, all

perfectly aligned and, and whatnot.

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Um, so it's interesting cuz there's,

there's essentially two competing

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approaches to achieving this

kind of ignition fusion energy.

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There's two different models at play here.

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I would not say competing.

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I would say complimentary

because, uh, yeah, complimentary.

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Right, right.

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But like, yeah, if like, you know, it's

like, In early, in the early days of

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the invention of the bicycle, there

were different like form factors Yes.

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That were being experimented with and

like, and we now have current form factor

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that sort of became that, you know, under

pressure of evolutionary pressures became

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the form factor that we all know today.

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But in the beginning there were

numerous different form factors that

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were, you know, being tested out and

tried and, and here we've got the ITER

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project is sort of one form factor.

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and the, the Livermore Labs project

that just achieved this, this whole

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milestone is a different form factor.

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It's like a different style of

achieving the goal, uh, and structure.

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So it's exciting to see that there's

more than one thing in motion.

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Cause it feels to me that that

diversity of approach maybe,

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hopefully, will lead to even more

likelihood of outcome of success.

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Isn't that true of many things like

the radio and the, the light bulb?

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There were all sorts of things that were,

um, Being dreamed up in various places.

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Um, and uh, and so it's funny how

that all of a sudden breakthroughs

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happen in multiple places.

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Around the same subject.

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I think that's so amazing.

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. Yeah.

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I don't know if you, because we've been,

we are talking now a lot about, uh,

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nuclear fusion in the past few days.

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And I don't know if you remember, uh, in

back to the future, um, there was a scene

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where, um, Can't, what's the name with Z?

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Well, the doc goes to Maori and

say, okay, well , I need to take you

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to the future because, uh, because

there's an urgent matter to that

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needs to you to, to help solve.

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And um, so he has his car and he goes to

the, to the, , garbage and picks some.

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Some garbage and put into like a

kind of grinder in his car, and

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this grinder is attached to his car.

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And it says, uh, mis fusion.

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So I believe that this is, this,

this kind of thing was like,

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um, , a portable, um, huge rec.

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On the car.

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So maybe the future will be like this.

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. I love it.

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, back to the future, invented . Yeah.

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He, he doesn't get literally

some, I remember that scene.

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He's in an alleyway and he gets

some like banana peels and things.

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Puts him in the car with him.

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Yeah.

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And yeah, so this probably, this

might be the future, I mean the

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future that some people dreamed

of and, uh, might be our future.

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Yeah, but well, the problem is that

it's, it's not tomorrow because

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it takes a long, long time for

it to That's very cool though.

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I, I remember , I was just gonna say,

I remember when my son was a little

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boy and he, we asked him what, um, what

he wanted Santa to bring him, and he

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said, a watch that I can watch TV on.

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And this was in the 1990s.

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, there was no such thing . And so, you

know, Santa had a really hard time cause

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there was no such thing and Santa

was too busy to invent it that year,

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but , um, but isn't it interesting that

our human imagination and creativity

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can come up with the solutions that,

that the world needs when we need it?

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So that, that brings me hope, . But

that doesn't mean that , because of

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this breakthrough, uh, we can and we

should stop, you know, what we're doing

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now to try to reduce carbon emission

because it takes some time, right?

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Yeah, we do right?

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We, this, this isn't a technology

that will solve our problems tomorrow.

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This is exciting.

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We can be very excited.

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We've made a forward progress,

but, and maybe this is a moment

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to even sort of acknowledge.

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That there are still parts in this

breakthrough that the measurement

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of, again, using two, you know,

megajoules turned into three, that

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doesn't mean that it's fully taken

into account all of the other energies

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that went into producing the machine.

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The equipment like we with, there's

still many more breakthroughs

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needed to make this commercially

viable in a way that is competitive

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with these other energy sources.

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, be it nuclear, be it coal or

natural gas cost competitive.

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I don't mean impact competitive, um,

or solar or wind or hydro, you know,

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it's, it's still, there's many more

breakthroughs still needed to get there,

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which means, as you said, leaky, you

know, we, we need to keep doing the things

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we're doing now to help change the course

of our planetary, you know, trajectory

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because we can't just hold our breath.

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This what may be a contributing

benefit that helps us in the future,

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but it it's still years away.

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Maybe decades.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Hmm.

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So we keep talking.

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We keep doing, so we keep talking.

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LYNN: You've been listening to Karbon

sessions, a podcast with carbon

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conversations for every day, with

everyone from everywhere in the world.

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We'd love you to join the carbon

sessions so YouTube can share your

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perspectives from wherever you are.

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This is a great way for our community

to learn from your ideas and

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experiences, connect and take action.

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If you want to add your voice to

the conversation, go to the carbon.

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Dot org slash podcast and sign up

to be part of a future episode.

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This podcast is also part of the

carbon Almanac network for more

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information, to sign up for the

emails, to join the movement and

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to order your copy of the carbon

Almanac, go to the carbon almanac.org.

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Be sure to subscribe

and join us here again.

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As together we can change the world.

About the Podcast

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CarbonSessions
Carbon Conversations for every day, with everyone, from everywhere in the world.

About your host

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Carbon Almanac

When it comes to the climate, we don’t need more marketing or anxiety. We need established facts and a plan for collective action.

The climate is the fundamental issue of our time, and now we face a critical decision. Whether to be optimistic or fatalistic, whether to profess skepticism or to take action. Yet it seems we can barely agree on what is really going on, let alone what needs to be done. We urgently need facts, not opinions. Insights, not statistics. And a shift from thinking about climate change as a “me” problem to a “we” problem.

The Carbon Almanac is a once-in-a-lifetime collaboration between hundreds of writers, researchers, thinkers, and illustrators that focuses on what we know, what has come before, and what might happen next. Drawing on over 1,000 data points, the book uses cartoons, quotes, illustrations, tables, histories, and articles to lay out carbon’s impact on our food system, ocean acidity, agriculture, energy, biodiversity, extreme weather events, the economy, human health, and best and worst-case scenarios. Visually engaging and built to share, The Carbon Almanac is the definitive source for facts and the basis for a global movement to fight climate change.

This isn’t what the oil companies, marketers, activists, or politicians want you to believe. This is what’s really happening, right now. Our planet is in trouble, and no one concerned group, corporation, country, or hemisphere can address this on its own. Self-interest only increases the problem. We are in this together. And it’s not too late to for concerted, collective action for change.