[FOCUS] Fusion and Possibilities for A Brighter Future

Speaker: 00:00:00

and today we are talking about No Clear Fu

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Okay, we are recording this

episode in, in December.

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This is the second week of December,

and this episode will probably be

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realized in January, but something,

something major broke the news last week.

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This week, actually two days ago.

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Tell us more the, the real

definition of a newsflash . Right.

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Um, well, I think, you

know, it's exciting.

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The, um, the, you know, some US

scientists, although I will give a

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quick shout out here, some people have

commented, noted that there's a number of

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groups in Europe also working, and we're

near this kind of, uh, milestone as well.

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But maybe the war in Ukraine

slowed down some of their progress.

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But for the moment, uh,

here in December, some US.

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Have achieved what's called ignition in a,

in a fusion reaction, um, which, and then

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sort of overcome this ignition barrier.

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We'll come back and dive a little bit

into fusion, but it sort of means that

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they've produced more energy than it took

to create that amount of energy creation.

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Um, and so that's a, a

super exciting milestone,

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I've listened to podcast hats only

four or five months ago that were

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all about fusion, and it was like,

well, it's always only 10 years away

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before we're gonna achieve this.

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You know, crossing this ignition

energy barrier where we're actually

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drawing more power out of the

reaction than what into creating the.

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but here we are in December of 2022

and we've crossed that barrier.

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Um, and it's super duper exciting

and I think holds, you know, a lot of

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exciting stuff for us to chat about here.

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Um, you know, I guess I would turn and

ask, uh, leaky, you know, you, you were

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sharing and sort of talking a little bit

about the amount of energy on any one

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country driven by different sources of.

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And, you know, fusion is not one

that's driving for any country

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right now, but something somewhat

similar to fusion Nuclear power.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Is is dominant in your country, correct?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I, well as you know, um, in France

and in France, , , the source of

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energy is many nuclear because.

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Um, there was, um, crisis,

the oil crisis in seven in

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the seventies and, um, and the

government decided to, to, develop.

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The, um, nuclear energy sector.

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There was this very famous

phrase, uh, that says

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which means in France we have no

oil, but we have lots of ideas.

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And the idea was to switch

everything , uh, to nuclear power.

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And so, I think before, , all the,

uh, the, you know, the problems

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in Japan, , France was leading,

the nuclear energy sector.

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And, um, I think that 70% of,

of energy comes from nuclear,

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um, nuclear plants in front.

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It used to, um, not anymore

because um, a lot of them are

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been, , under repair these days.

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, but this is something that we've been

using for a while and um, and I know

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that's very controversial, . It's a

very controversial topic, but so far we

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didn't have any problem in France and.

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I get very excited about, the fusion, uh,

the nuclear fusion power, , as opposed to

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fishing, which is when you get the energy,

when, when you separate the atoms, right?

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So this is the energy

that is, uh, used today.

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And the problem of it is

that it creates, Love waste.

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No, it creates waste.

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No, I shouldn't say a love waste.

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It creates waste and it's difficult

because it's potent for a long time.

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And, um, there are accents, whereas

the, , energy that comes from

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fusion, , is the energy that's that

powers the sun and this is the type

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of energy that comes from, , Fusion.

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So from the atoms melting, , and it's

safer and um, and it's seems to be

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an incredible, um, source of energy

that is, um, that does not, em,

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it's common, so it's clean energy.

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So there was a lot of

hope, but, , as you said.

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Um, yeah, we are maybe 10 years away.

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, but, you know, I work a lot with, , um,

engineering students and they told me that

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this the joke and let me pull the joke,

uh, among physicists, uh, lemme see, think

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it's, um, yeah, there's a joke that says,

oh, nuclear fusion energy is 20 years.

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and it will always be

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Yeah.

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This is a joke because actually

the technology, um, and

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again, I'm not a physicist.

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I'm not a scientist at all, but

I know that this type of energy

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existed, um, since the fifties.

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But basically it comes from a bomb.

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, it's a very, very powerful bomb.

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It's called, um, um, H bomb or it's a

hydrogen bomb, which is like, I don't

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know how many times more pot than it is,

uh, as compared to, , the atomic bomb,

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but it's really, really, really bad.

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But then we saw the potential

in transforming it and using it,

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this type of, this technology

and to generate energy and, and

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to plug it to, into our grid.

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But there are of problems that

needs to be solved before that.

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So that's why it took so long.

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Agreed.

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I was gonna say, you know, just commenting

back on the beginning part of your,

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uh, commentary that leaky, I, you know,

I'm here in the United States in New

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York and I actually live near a nuclear

power plant that is in the process as

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many are in other parts of the world

of actually being decommissioned and

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over concerns of their potential, you

know, fallout kind of situation as it

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relates to, you know, systems failure.

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and so many around the world of

this, what is otherwise a very clean

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type of energy source that doesn't

contribute to our, our sort of the,

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the imbalance in our carbon cycle.

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Many nuclear power plants are

actually being decommissioned out of

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concerns over their age, their safety

protocols, those kind of things.

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And I live in an area where, you know,

my energy now is this power plant

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becomes decommissioned because we

don't yet have a fusion replacement.

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Now that energy that I otherwise

would be consuming and the people

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in the local area, including New

York City, would be consuming.

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You're now gonna come from other

plants that might be natural

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gas powered or coal tower.

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you know, maybe a little bit of hydro,

maybe a little bit of solar, a little

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bit of wind, but, but they all have,

those have other sort of negative

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impacts into this carbon cycle imbalance.

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And it's gonna actually have an

impact as well to the cost, right?

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The, the, because the nuclear is actually

was already built and very cost efficient.

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it's actually gonna

raise the electrics rate.

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Now I happen to have a full solar

array, so we're self-powered in

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my house, but most people aren't.

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And so it's interesting, I think

one of the conversations around

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fusion comes back to the same thing.

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If you compare the different sources

of energy out there in the marketplace,

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um, the cost to produce a kilowatt

hour used as a standard measuring

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thing, you know, varies across these d.

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Technology, nuclear, coal, natural

gas fired, hydro wind, solar, and

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fusion Hold potential because as you

mentioned, the, the, the ingredients

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that go into making fusion work are

yeah, readily, abundantly available.

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And don't create this, this sort of

like, um, waste material that has to

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be dealt with, uh, like, uh, depleted

uranium done and both kind of.

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Yes.

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And so it's readily available materials

and if we can get this equation right, or

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if this is the great hope is if we can get

this balance right, where less energy goes

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in, you know, two, yeah, megajoules go in

and we get three megajoules of energy out.

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Well then that can be the sort of

self-fulfilling like that and then

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helps start powering all the rest of it.

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But for right now, some of

the commentary and have been.

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You know, on this discovery as well,

for right now, we actually have

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an amazing source of fusion power.

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And it's actually our sun.

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Our sun is producing fusion

power every single day.

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I mean, today for me, it's very rainy and

wet and I don't see much of the fusion

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power, but it's, but it's producing

all this fusion power there in the

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sun, which we receive a solar energy.

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Um, and so I think there's

a, a little bit of a question

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of like, what's gonna happen?

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With fusion, when, when does it come into

play and become a cost affordable thing?

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And does it re, does, does it mean

that we need to not be worried

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about our source of energy and our,

our carbon cycle imbalance now?

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And I turned, Jim, do you

have thoughts on this?

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Yeah, I was just, uh, doing

a little research on, on what

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was happening where I am.

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I'm in Canada, I'm in Western

Canada, in British Columbia.

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And it seems that there were, there are

about 22 nuclear power reactors in Canada,

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but only 19 of them are working, and most

of them are in Ontario, which is, uh,

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is more central, uh, eastern central.

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Um, there are the one in Quebec decided

to shut down about 10 years ago because

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of the same kinds of things that we

had talked about, um, about safety and.

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And efficiency, and I know that here in

British Columbia we have a lot of water.

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And there, uh, there's big argument

going on that's been going on for years.

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Um, our government decided to purchase

a, um, a pipeline, which caused a lot of

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controversy and there are protests and

there are all sorts of things going on.

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Um, we've got a, a big dam that's

being constructed in the north.

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Called the Site C Dam.

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Um, and, uh, and the idea is

to dam a very powerful river,

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uh, for hydroelectric power.

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Um, so there's a lot of, there's a

lot of power discussions and, and

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so this, this caused me a bit of

hope, , especially given the, the

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reduction of carbon like no carbon.

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And the possibility that if we could

do what we did with the pandemic

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and everybody jump on board and try

and get this pushed farther ahead,

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you know, it seems to be like when

there's an urgent matter, like the

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pandemic, sorry, that's Charlie shaking.

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Um, like the pandemic where

every scientist focused

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their energy and their money.

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If we could all, everyone,

scientists everywhere Yeah.

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Focus their energy and their money on

this, then, then there's real hope Yeah.

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For, for reducing our carbon and, and

giving energy to everyone and Wow.

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You know, Jen, there was a, uh,

a great little piece I, I read

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on the fundraising in 2022.

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Uh, as it relates to, there were 33 main

companies that were sort of raising funds

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and focusing on fusion of meaningful

sides and, and fundraising scale.

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And the amount that was fundraised was

a fraction of the, I think it was in

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total $3 billion, if I recall correctly,

but I could be slightly wrong on that.

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Don't quote me.

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But I do recall that it was a

fraction, like less than 10%.

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Of the same amount of money raised for,

uh, companies focusing on addressing

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like short-term delivery, like delivering

restaurant food to your door and short

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and delivering packages to your door, and

like technology around like, Uber Eats.

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I don't know if you have these where

you are, but things like Uber Eat

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or GrubHub or those things, like

much more money, more than 10 times

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money was raised for those services

in: 2022

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But this, this, this big

milestone might change that we

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may see a change in the future.

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So I'm, I'm hopeful.

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That things do go in the direction

that they're more funding dollars

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resources, you know, federal for,

you know, every country, you know,

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dollars are allocated towards.

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And therewith with the money goes the time

and energy from scientists and engineers.

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I, I hope it does go that way.

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Yeah.

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Uh, and I, I wanna go back to, um,

the urgency that you mentioned, Jen.

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I actually, I said something that was

not totally right because when I said,

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oh yeah, well, in France, we, in Europe,

we've been working on this topic for

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long and, uh, it's been slowed down

because of the war of Ukraine, which

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is partly true, but not totally true

because, um, As you, as you mentioned,

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Brian, there are different ways of,

different ways of, um, of, getting the

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potential of the, uh, nuclear fusion.

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And, uh, so it's true for one,

, project, which is laser based, uh,

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which is based in France, in bau.

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And, um, they were, they were waiting

for like, Still delivery to, to

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work on the, on the laser thing.

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But then there's another project

which is, and you probably have

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heard of it because it's this

international project, which is called.

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Which stands for, hang on just one minute.

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Um, stands for International

Thermonuclear Experimental Rector.

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And this is a project, it's an

international product and it has

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European Union, China, us, Russia, India.

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So a lot of countries are involved in this

project and they're building a new recor.

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And this new rector is based somewhere.

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Okay.

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Somewhere in.

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And, um, and, um, the test should start

some, the test test should start sometime

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in, uh, it gets your dog Very excited.

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Wasn't mine, not very excited.

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No.

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So it, the Rakuten, uh, was

supposed to start, uh, being oper

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to start operating in 20 27, 25.

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And, um, because of the urgency, and

it, because it's an international

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project, there was a lot, um, of fear,

, because, um, Russia is part of this

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project and, uh, this year, uh, Russia.

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Has, um, um, is um, is supposed to

deliver one of the magnets, one of

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the six magnet for this project.

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A big, very, very big magnet because

this is another technology that uses

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magnet and actually, , because there's a

urgency and despite the worst situ still

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delivered this magnet to this project.

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So I think this kind

of urgency goes beyond.

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The worst situation.

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So yeah.

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Yeah.

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I, yeah, I think this is

this, uh, this is great.

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That's great to hear that.

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Leave me a good moment.

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Leaky, to talk for a, a second

about the different kinds of, of

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technical approaches to fusion.

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because, you know, and again, I'm also

not a scientist, physicist, engineer, or

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expert in this, as none of us on this, uh,

podcast are, but it is interesting because

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the, the, the it a r project you're

referring to is, is following this method.

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Referred to as Tomac, where they're

these really big magnetic, um, uh,

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components that create this sort of donut

shaped field, the plasma, and moving

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around at super fast speed constrained

by the magnet and these Tomac magnet,

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these big things that Russia just

delivered, one of which is great to hear.

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This newest, um, uh, breakthrough that

just happened, you know, for us this

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week here in December, um, out at the

Lawrence Livermore Labs, um, which

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I have to have a quick shout out.

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I, it just dawned on me.

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I actually have a coworker who

works at Lawrence Livermore,

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so I've gotta call him.

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He now works there.

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He worked for me many years ago.

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Um, uh, not on this project, on, on other

things, but, but, so the approach they

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did was a different kind of approach

where they had all these lasers, 192

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different lasers all focused, and

they do use magnets to create some

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magnetic field around it and create

the precision, but it's not the same

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as the Tomac project where they focus

all these lasers at this little seed.

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Um, and sort of like create all this

pressure because all the lasers hit

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all at just the right second, all

perfectly aligned and, and whatnot.

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Um, so it's interesting cuz there's,

there's essentially two competing

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approaches to achieving this

kind of ignition fusion energy.

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There's two different models at play here.

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I would not say competing.

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I would say complimentary

because, uh, yeah, complimentary.

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Right, right.

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But like, yeah, if like, you know, it's

like, In early, in the early days of

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the invention of the bicycle, there

were different like form factors Yes.

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That were being experimented with and

like, and we now have current form factor

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that sort of became that, you know, under

pressure of evolutionary pressures became

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the form factor that we all know today.

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But in the beginning there were

numerous different form factors that

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were, you know, being tested out and

tried and, and here we've got the ITER

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project is sort of one form factor.

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and the, the Livermore Labs project

that just achieved this, this whole

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milestone is a different form factor.

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It's like a different style of

achieving the goal, uh, and structure.

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So it's exciting to see that there's

more than one thing in motion.

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Cause it feels to me that that

diversity of approach maybe,

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hopefully, will lead to even more

likelihood of outcome of success.

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Isn't that true of many things like

the radio and the, the light bulb?

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There were all sorts of things that were,

um, Being dreamed up in various places.

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Um, and uh, and so it's funny how

that all of a sudden breakthroughs

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happen in multiple places.

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Around the same subject.

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I think that's so amazing.

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. Yeah.

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I don't know if you, because we've been,

we are talking now a lot about, uh,

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nuclear fusion in the past few days.

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And I don't know if you remember, uh, in

back to the future, um, there was a scene

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where, um, Can't, what's the name with Z?

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Well, the doc goes to Maori and

say, okay, well , I need to take you

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to the future because, uh, because

there's an urgent matter to that

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needs to you to, to help solve.

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: 00:18:31

And um, so he has his car and he goes to

the, to the, , garbage and picks some.

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Some garbage and put into like a

kind of grinder in his car, and

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this grinder is attached to his car.

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: 00:18:44

And it says, uh, mis fusion.

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: 00:18:46

So I believe that this is, this,

this kind of thing was like,

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: 00:18:50

um, , a portable, um, huge rec.

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: 00:18:55

On the car.

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: 00:18:55

So maybe the future will be like this.

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: 00:18:59

. I love it.

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: 00:19:01

, back to the future, invented . Yeah.

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: 00:19:05

He, he doesn't get literally

some, I remember that scene.

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: 00:19:07

He's in an alleyway and he gets

some like banana peels and things.

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: 00:19:10

Puts him in the car with him.

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: 00:19:11

Yeah.

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: 00:19:12

And yeah, so this probably, this

might be the future, I mean the

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: 00:19:17

future that some people dreamed

of and, uh, might be our future.

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: 00:19:20

Yeah, but well, the problem is that

it's, it's not tomorrow because

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: 00:19:25

it takes a long, long time for

it to That's very cool though.

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: 00:19:29

I, I remember , I was just gonna say,

I remember when my son was a little

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: 00:19:33

boy and he, we asked him what, um, what

he wanted Santa to bring him, and he

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: 00:19:40

said, a watch that I can watch TV on.

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: 00:19:43

And this was in the 1990s.

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: 00:19:47

, there was no such thing . And so, you

know, Santa had a really hard time cause

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: 00:19:55

there was no such thing and Santa

was too busy to invent it that year,

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: 00:20:00

but , um, but isn't it interesting that

our human imagination and creativity

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: 00:20:06

can come up with the solutions that,

that the world needs when we need it?

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: 00:20:12

So that, that brings me hope, . But

that doesn't mean that , because of

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: 00:20:17

this breakthrough, uh, we can and we

should stop, you know, what we're doing

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: 00:20:23

now to try to reduce carbon emission

because it takes some time, right?

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: 00:20:28

Yeah, we do right?

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: 00:20:30

We, this, this isn't a technology

that will solve our problems tomorrow.

325

: 00:20:35

This is exciting.

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: 00:20:36

We can be very excited.

327

: 00:20:37

We've made a forward progress,

but, and maybe this is a moment

328

: 00:20:41

to even sort of acknowledge.

329

: 00:20:44

That there are still parts in this

breakthrough that the measurement

330

: 00:20:48

of, again, using two, you know,

megajoules turned into three, that

331

: 00:20:55

doesn't mean that it's fully taken

into account all of the other energies

332

: 00:20:59

that went into producing the machine.

333

: 00:21:00

The equipment like we with, there's

still many more breakthroughs

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: 00:21:03

needed to make this commercially

viable in a way that is competitive

335

: 00:21:07

with these other energy sources.

336

: 00:21:10

, be it nuclear, be it coal or

natural gas cost competitive.

337

: 00:21:14

I don't mean impact competitive, um,

or solar or wind or hydro, you know,

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: 00:21:19

it's, it's still, there's many more

breakthroughs still needed to get there,

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: 00:21:23

which means, as you said, leaky, you

know, we, we need to keep doing the things

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: 00:21:27

we're doing now to help change the course

of our planetary, you know, trajectory

341

: 00:21:35

because we can't just hold our breath.

342

: 00:21:37

This what may be a contributing

benefit that helps us in the future,

343

: 00:21:40

but it it's still years away.

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: 00:21:43

Maybe decades.

345

: 00:21:43

Yeah.

346

: 00:21:45

Yeah.

347

: 00:21:47

Hmm.

348

: 00:21:49

So we keep talking.

349

: 00:21:51

We keep doing, so we keep talking.

350

: 00:21:55

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351

: 00:21:58

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